This is the FCB podcast Network greats. When they drop jaw boot change as dot Dog. We don't listen to y'alls that the Outlaw. We don't listen to y'all to the Outlaw. Make a scream out down like a sound dog, because a rockets in the crowd like a tune into the tar from the Outlaw. Tune into the tarn from the Outlaw. Welcome to a special edition of the Outlaws. This is Darvo to King Penmorl. Don't forget too Like us on Facebook at Facebook dot com, slash the Outlaws Radio, follow us on Twitter, slash x, and Instagram at the Outlaws Radio. It's a very special episode. We are spending the full hour with commentator John Zigler. He has been on this show several times before. He is going to be updating us on the current developments when it comes to the controversial documentary quote unquote documentary Leaving Neverland about Michael Jackson. There has been a ton of holes poked into that so called documentary. There's been a lot of inconsistencies and now the party's involved are getting prepared to go to court. So John joined us on the show to kind of update us he's been one of the lead journalists following this situation, one of the only journalists really viewing it with a skeptical eye and looking at all of the things that are the issues concerning the inconsistencies and things like that when it comes to this. So we are going to go to the beginning of the interview with John Ziggler right now. All right, we have a very special guest on the show today. He's been on this show before. When I first became aware of him, it was through the political space as a as a commentator on political issues. He's also become very known recently in the last couple of years for debunking a lot of Hollywood myths, and that's some of the things we're going to talk about here today. John Ziggler, welcome back to the show. How you doing, sir. I'm doing fine, Darby. Always good to talk to you, absolutely absolutely so. Obviously we've been following the whole you know, Leaving Netherlands saga and the and the stuff behind that concerning of course, the Michael Jackson allegations, and you know, when we first kind of seen things with the movie, we were you know, this show was very skeptical from the beginning, and you saw some of the stuff that you'd said, and that's kind of what led us to, you know, start doing the interviews in the first place. So before we kind of dig into stuff, why don't we catch people up now on the latest ongoings with this. I believe that there's been some new activity I think around this well, as far as I can tell, we're essentially waiting to see whether or not the allegations at the center of the Leaving Neverland Forest that HBO ran a few years ago, which centers around the allegations of Wade Robson and James safe Chuck, we're waiting to see whether or not that's actually going to go to trial. There've been numerous court rulings against Robson and safe Chuck that throughout their lawsuit for over a billion dollars, which is just utterly ridiculous under all circumstances against the Michael Jackson the state. But it appears as if we are going to be heading for a trial now when that will actually begin, I you know, these things are always very difficult to predict, but it could be fairly soon. And I have been somebody who believes even though these allegations are obviously false, and then even legally they have no real standing or foundation, and said, it's absolutely ridiculous the illegal argument that has been used to try to get around all sorts of things like statute limitations and lack of standing and all that in order to just get this into a court of law. But I've been somebody who's been a little bit i don't know, contrariant to the average person on my side of this battle, where I've said, hey, let's bring it to me. A trial is the only way you might get real vindication here if you're someone who believes, as I do, that Michael Jackson is unfairly accused in this situation. And frankly, you know, with the estate having the resources that they have and some very smart people behind them. While it's not the perfect venue because obviously Michael Jackson is dead and can't defend himself, and in a civil case you have a preponderance of the evidence standard rather than beyond a reasonable doubt, which makes it much more difficult for the defense, I'm still confident that even a Los Angeles jury, which is always you know, you're always rolling the dice when you have a Los Angeles jury is going to be able to figure out that this story is bullcrap and that I would like to see a trial. I'd like to see a verdict from a jury, and maybe, just maybe if that happens the way that it should, if the truth and Justice has any say that the media will finally go, wait a minute, maybe this this whole never leaving Neverland thing is is bogus, and then maybe we shouldn't have jumped on this. And you know, who knows. In an ideal world, maybe maybe HBO will actually stop running the thing or drop it from its menu of options. So that's the best case scenario. But I I'm of the belief, Darbia, that this is the only scenario where you can get real vindication. It has to be in a court of law because the media is never going to do it, because it's the media is just too broken and too invested in this false narrative. Well, that actually leads right into my next question. I know, the last time you've been on, actually the last couple of times, you know, we've talked about the media's role in this, and you and I both share, you know, extreme skepticism about the way that the media conducts a lot of its business generally on this and other issues. But what have you seen so far, really since really like since the last time we talked, there's been a lot of debunking of this. What response have you seen from the mainstream media generally as this story has started to fall apart? Well, you know, there's different elements of the news media, and the big media has largely ignored this story. There are elements of I guess you would call it mainstream media that have just accepted it and still go to Dan Reid for who directed this abomination Leaving Neverland for a reaction to Whenever anything happens regarding Michael Jackson's estate or this lawsuit or the Michael Jackson musical or whatever any news at all that comes out about Michael Jackson, there are still people who bring up what I believe to be the mythology that was ended in Leaving Neverland. Now, the people who have actually done the work and investigated this, and this is a clear cut case. I mean, the evidence is overwhelming, and let's be clear, Darvi, it's very, very very difficult to prove a negative, which is what you're forced to do to defend Michael Jackson proved something that it didn't happen decades ago, you know, especially when Michael Jackson is dead and not able to defend himself. But if you use your brain and you look at the evidence here, it really almost couldn't be more overwhelming, especially when it comes to Wade Robson, who testified as an adult in Michael Jackson's criminal trial where Michael Jackson was unanimously quitted of all charges, and that Wade Robson was his first witness and was asked very very clearly under oath as an adult, whether or not any of these things ever happened to him, and he vehemently denied them and strongly defended Michael Jackson. And you know, Tom Mazero, Michael Jackson's attorney, never would have put Wade Robson on the stand, especially not first if he had had in any inkling that Michael Jackson had abused him. And oh, by the way, Michael Jackson would have said, hey, Tom, maybe maybe Wade wouldn't be a great witness. But none of that happened, and then it only changed years later after Michael Jackson died. And by the way, when Michael Jackson died. Wade Robson wrote a blurb in a pro Michael Jackson book that could not have been more glowing in his praise of Michael Jackson as a person and as an as a cultural icon. And then all of a sudden, after Wade doesn't get the choreography job for the Michael Jackson Las Vegas Show, everything dramatically changes. And I don't think that's a coincidence. It's obvious that's what happened here. And if you look at the timing, you know when this happened, there were a lot of other things going on in the world of sex abuse cases that I think Wade might have been looking around, going hey, wait a minute, I could do that, and people would believe maybe because of Michael Jackson's very strange past and the fact that Michael's no longer around to defend himself, and so you know, there's really a disconnect, Darvo, between the people who have looked at the facts and the people that haven't. But I have to say, the most interesting thing that's happened in the media, and I don't even know if you're aware of this. I wasn't sure when you asked me to do this. Interview of this may have sparked and somehow, but but I was stunned, and this came from a very odd source. I was stunned when I was watching Hard Knocks. Now do you do you watch Hard Knocks at all? Darvo? I do? I do? I didn't see it this season, but I do watch. Okay, well, then you'll be fascinated by this. So in the last episode of Hard Docks, which is where HBO takes a look at at one NFL team in training camp every year, and this year, this year they chose the New York Jets because of Aaron Rodgers, which didn't turn out very well obviously, because he's already out for the year, maybe his career after four plays. Okay, well, here's the relevant part of this, and you should go back and watch it because you're gonna be blown away. So obviously it's the New York Jets. And one of the themes of the of the entire Hard Knocks series was them going to Broadway shows right in their off time because it's New York. And the last episode, at least the stars of the team, including Aaron Rodgers, they all go to see Michael Jackson the musical now. Now, now, first of all, you know this is HBO. This is the same company that that essentially produced and distributed this and promoted the hell out of this hit piece on Michael Jackson, the same HBO that is currently embroiled, as far as I can tell, in a lawsuit with Michael Jackson's estate. Right, So, so you would think that at best, at best, if the producers of Hard Knocks thought, well, we really loved this whole Broadway theme, they decided to go to see Michael Jackson, We're just we're gonna cover this, we'll mention it. Hey, they went to go see Michael Jackson's musical and and you know, one undone, we get in and we get out. We don't want to make too much of this because obviously our parent company is being sued by the estate. Well that's not what happened. The HBO Hard Knocks episode went on for at least twelve minutes. Oh wow, with incredible detail. It was basic a commercial for the Michael Jackson musical. I'm not exaggerating. It was essentially a commercial. It was something that the Michael Jackson the musical, and obviously the Michael Jackson state could not have paid for so, and you know, if they had tried to pay for day at HBO, I'm sure HBO would have said, what are you crazy, you're suing us? You know, why would we do this? And so, knowing the way that the media works, I didn't know how to interpret this because I'm like, there is no way, there is no way that the producers of Hard Knocks would would do this unless they were trying to stick a finger in their boss's eye. I don't know, but but but you would think that's something that that was such a large part of probably their premier enterprise for August. I mean, it's the most high profile thing that HBO does in August every year is Hard Knocks. That for them to make such a dramatic move as to basically do a commercial for the Michael Jackson musical on Broadway, I didn't know how to interpret it. And I even emailed one of the lead lawyers from the estate, which with whom I had had lunch years ago about this topic. He didn't even respond to me. Now, I don't know why. You know, there's a million reasons why someone might not respond, but I was like, you know, did you see this? I'm really curious as to what your interpretation is because it makes no sense. I mean, and I even tweeted and asked Michael Jackson fans, did I miss something that that HBO lawsuit get dismissed? And there's no evidence that it did. But I don't know. Is this some sort of a fig lely, you know, an ol branch? Is this a peace offering? Is this an indication that something has changed changed or is this just the weirdest thing that somehow got through the censors, Because again, I cannot believe that the programmers at HBO would have been happy with their premier series basically running a commercial for the Michael Jackson the State while they're in the midst of this lawsuits. So that was really strange and I don't know how to interpret it to this day. So well, and so let me ask you this. We're talking with John Zigler, and we know that there's been some internal issues at Warner and you know, the kind of they've got new ownership and trying to clean their stuff up. We hear that most often in regards to you know, CNN and stuff like that. Do you think this could possibly be an olive branch or a fig leaf and in an attempt to kind of like, let's let's put this to bed, let's just get this out of here and get as much drama as possible out of Warner. Well, you know, there's obviously new ownership at Warner, which owns everything basically now, including as you said, HBO and CNN. Now, you know, it's always difficult to say. Sometimes a company is so large that those at the top don't have nearly the same kind of control over things that they would if it was smaller, right, because there's just too there's just too much, right, you can't be approving everything. And so is it possible that what I just described to you got through it's just just really odd quirk and no one either noticed it or was willing to stop it. I guess that's possible. But it is also possible that they change an ownership has a different attitude towards the lawsuit and the Michael Jackson, the state in general, maybe even leaving Neverland. I don't know that it is possible that I may get an opportunity to find that out in the coming weeks or so, and if I do, I'm going to take advantage of that. I can't get into any further details of that, but that that is, that is a possibility. But I'm as curious as you are because none of this makes a lot of sense right now. And I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that you know, maybe there will be a change in the in the weather there. And like I said, you know, the ultimate scenario would be for HBO to to make I'm sure they wouldn't do this in a public way, but to at least quietly, essentially, you know, put leaving Neverland in the basement, never to be seen again. Because it is it is a farce. It is not true. It is an abomination, and it was treated in most of the media, thanks to Oprah's blessing, as actually being real, and it's just wrong. It's wrong. I mean, regardless of how you think about Michael Jackson. I mean, even in Michael Jackson. I said this from the very beginning, even if Michael Jackson was somehow guilty of being a serial child molester, and I would ask people to think about this, I mean, among many, many, many, many other things. But if he really was as famous and as rich as he was, and as much access as he had the kids, if that was really the case. How could possibly how could we possibly be in a situation where when there's all this money on the table that nobody joins Wade Robinson and James Safechuck in their lawsuit, Nobody, nobody comes forward to Dan Reid and says, hey, I want to be part of your next documentary, which he said he was going to do and has. And how is it possible that really only four I count it, four, other people count five, But I think only four remotely quote unquote credible allegations have been made all these years after Jackson's death. That's just not possible. But even if he was guilty, I still think Leaving Neverland was done in a very very unfair fashion, especially when it's about a guy who's dead. I mean inherently, if you're going to do allegations without evidence, you know you need the other person's side of the story. Well, you can't get the other person's side of the story because they're no longer with us. And to me, if they're no longer with us, that would require a far greater standard of evidence, far greater than existed in Leaving Neverland, and that standard was not adhered to. More with John Zigler when we come back here on The Outlaws. Hey, y'all, this is Ali Michelle. I'm a conservative social media influencer that has been censored by big tech, so I broke away from the restrictions and started a podcast called pillow Talk with Allie Michelle. My show is a space to have real conversations about the issues that impact our everyday lives without the fear of being canceled by the big tech tyrants. Subscribe to pillow Talk with Allie Michelle and FCB podcast on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you getch podcasts. That's Ali a l I. I come check on my show. I'll see you there. Real talk, real conversations. We got the heat. Yes, this is The Laws Radio show. Welcome back, Welcome back. You're listening to the Outlaws. Make sure that you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, five, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcast. And if you listen to the show on Apple, please make sure you leave us a five star review and a comment. It's very important for the algorithm and for those of you who have already done so. Thank you, oh so very much. Now let's get back to our interview with John Zigglin. Yeah, I see this situation, and I think you're right they really tried to piggyback on everything that was going on at the time, because I see this situation is very different than say, the Surviving R Kelly documentary, right, Like, I think it's a lot different. First of all, R Kelly still alive. Second of all, the allegations that have been made against Michael Jackson were very dubious from the start, and when you start peeling away at the layers of these particular allegations, the whole thing falls apart. So it seemed from the jump that it was an attempt to kind of piggy back on the climbmen. Of course you had, you know, there was a heightened awareness of the sexual abuse allegations and stuff like that from the Me Too era and all that kind of stuff, and it seemed like leaving Neverland was an attempt to kind of try to piggy back off. Yeah, I think there was a lot of that. I think that's what Oprah and her involvement was about. And I've always i think I've said this to you before, that Oprah's involvement to me was a real red flag because if you have the facts on your side. If you really have a compelling case, you don't need Oprah Winfrey to come swooping in and give her blessing and do a post documentary wrap up show an interview that was ridiculous and incredibly soft. You don't need her blessing and the fact that they felt like they needed her blessing in order to make sure they didn't get any media criticism, because that's really what she is. She's a force field. Right, If you have Oprah's blessing, then the media is not going to come after you because they are one afraid and two they automatically presume, well, if Oprah's got her fingerprints on this, that then it must be real, even though Oprah is quite a history of jumping on stories that were completely false. So I'm not sure you know how we got to this point, but that's where we are. And and so you know, I hear you know where you're coming from on this, and you know, I wish I had a better answer as to to you know, what's going to happen next, But there's no question that the climate for both Wade Robson's initial allegation when she made on the Today Show in an interview with Matt Lower, And I'm very, very close with Matt Lower, and I don't speak for Matt, but I can tell you that that matts Grave questions about Wade and did so even at the time that that allegation was made on the Today's Show. And then it was that allegation on The Today Show which allegedly made James Safe Chuck come forward after that. So I mean that there was a lot of things going on back in twenty thirteen when that happened, and then there were a lot of things going on during the time period where Leaving Neverland was produced, and the media has basically been disarmed on this issue. You're not allowed to question accusers, especially child sex abuse accusers, no matter what their financial incentive is, no matter how little their evidence is or how weak their evidence is, no matter how much contradicting evidence there is, You're just not allowed to do it. And I'm one of the few that's willing to do that because somebody asked to, because we've created the pendulum has swung Daria, pendulum has swung so far. I mean, there was absolutely a time when I'm sure child abuse happened and the reason why people get away with it was because no one would believe the accusers. Everyone was afraid to make an allegation, especially against the powerful person. I'm sure that that reality existed at some point, but we are now in the opposite realm. Now the pendulum has swung so far that now we have basically opened the door for someone to make false allegations, be embraced by the media, and maybe become super rich because of it. And that's a very dangerous situation. Right we're talking with John, where we have a few minutes left. I've got a couple more questions for you, back to kind of the media front and the media reaction to it. The thing that's been kind of interesting to me, and this is kind of an intersection here of entertainment and in the other world that I know you from the political The media that I've seen that has even been willing to entertained skepticism has interestingly been conservative media. Why do you think that is? Why do you think that that conservative media seems to be the only group of media that's even willing to entertain the fact that leaving Neverland might be bs. It's a great question. I think the main reason is because of two things. Conservatives have a lot more skepticism towards the mainstream media right, so it's a lot easier for conservatives to believe that HBO and Oprah, especially who's you know, seen as a very liberal figure, could blow a story like this, So that inherent skepticism plays a role. I think there's also on the left. I think that the left has created these rules like, for instance, believe all accusers that have basically handcuffed anybody on the left seriously taking on a case like this, And so I think those are the two main reasons I would like I would also like to believe I have some influence over that because I'm a conservative and you know, people do see me speaking out about this rather passionately. But I think it goes to the way the rules have been created on the left and skepticism of the media on the right. That makes a lot of sense, I think. And I know that there's been conservative figures who have you dealt with hit jobs for the media and stuff like that, and I would assume that that would also contribute to the level of skepticism that conservatives inherently have towards the mainstream media narratives in general period. Right, Well, yeah, I mean we've seen you know, the media tends to forget about them or never acknowledge them. But we've seen many fraudulen stories that have been officially debunked. I mean, jusse Smalllett is probably the most dramatic. And you know, and then that was a story with the liberal media embraced a completely ridiculous narrative. I don't know what your thoughts were on it, I mean, but we thought it would crap from the beginning. That doesn't surprise me because you have a brain and you think objectively, and and you know, I mean Dave Chappelle to Chicago, right right, I mean, to me, Dave Chappelle nailed the jus Smallllette situation better than anybody. And I think, by the way, interesting, I think Dave Chappelle also nailed the leaving Neverland situation better than anybody. So I mean, so you know, Dave Chappelle has his finger on the pulse of what's actually happening. But if the media is willing to buy the jus Smalette story without any questions, I mean, the idea that that thing held together for a couple of weeks before it finally imploded is utterly ridiculous. I mean, justse Smaallett was able to do an interview with Robin Roberts on Good Morning America and get through it without having his story be destroyed. I mean that that should have ended Robin Robert's career. I mean, I mean, you know, my my ten year old daughter could have easily destroyed Justice Smallett in that story. And so, and that's just one of many, many examples. But to me, just Smalleett stands out as Okay, if you guys are going to get duped by this, then how easy is it for you to get duped by, you know, something that's a little more sophisticated and where the person and what you know. This gets me to another topic here, darbio, But I think this is important. We have created such bizarre rules. I was thinking about this the other day. We've created such bizarre rules now for evaluating sex abuse allegations or any allegation really in this remotely, in this realm, that it is now a benefit to the accuser to have an allegation that is super old. Think about that it used to be It used to be that if you had an allegation and you said, well, when did this happen, and you go, oh, fifteen, twenty years ago, I'm not really sure what date. Immediately people would go okay, next, I mean right, you know, might have happened. But there's no way to there's no way we can go forward with this because you, I mean, you didn't say anything when it happened, and there's no proof that it did. And so what used to be the ultimate might drop that your story is not credible is now actually the strength of your story, because the burden has been flipped to where you have to disprove it, and disproving something at an unknown time, you know, decades before, when there's usually no even specific date is basically impossible and so weirdly, like you know, using the Smallet story, part of why the Smallllett story got destroyed was because it had just happened allegedly, and so we knew exactly when to get the sidewalk videos from, and we you know, we we knew everything right, and so therefore we were able to piece together that this story was bull crap. If if small At had said this happened fifteen or twenty years ago, people might not have believed it, but there were in no way to disprove it, right. See, so so we're up. We're an upside down world where where now it's actually advantageous to come up with a story from you know, like I said, fifteen twenty, sometimes twenty five years or older ago without even knowing an actual date, because now, because the flipping of the burden to proof, there's no way to disprove that story. And that, to me, it's really kind of stunning when you think about it, And it's also a recipe for disaster because you know you're gonna have it's so easy now to make a false allegation and and if if, you know, if you get lucky, and if the timing is right and the target is right, you know, you can make a lot of money out of this situation. I think we've seen this with academic institutions that are very, very very willing to roll over and pay other people's money to make something go away that didn't actually happen. And I think that's kind of what Robson and say, Chuck, we're banking on that that the Jackson State has so much money that they might just do that. And the Jackson State, to their credit, has not done that, and hopefully eventually the Robson in Safe Chuck will regret what they have done. Yeah, and it does seem like, you know, you kind of mentioned something that really kind of made me think about it. Like it does seem like it's an overcorrection in the climate right now, and and really particularly involving Mint right like it's now you're in a situation where a man can be falsely accused of something, and unless you got it on videos, it's damn near impossible to prove that you didn't do what they say you did, and it's not politically correct to even question an allegation like that. You're one hundred percent right, I mean I mentioned Matt Lower earlier. I was just talking to Matt today actually because there's a reporter who is interested in looking at that whole situation that happened with him, and I will I can tell you with a hundred percent certainty, Darby, that Matt Lower never forgot about raped anybody, He never abused anybody, he never harassed anybody. I mean, he did a stupid thing in his marriage. But and he'll be the first to acknowledge that, and he paid a heavy price for it. But the idea that that huge portions of people in the public and the media just pretend that Matt Lower, of all people, was somehow a serial abuser of women is just preposterous. And you know it's because he's he was an alpha male. I mean, but trust me, Tarfio, Matt didn't need to do much to get female attention when he when he was the host of the Today Show, and he took advantage of that, you know, to his own detriment. But he never did anything close to what he has been accused of doing or what has presumed that he did, and there's no evidence that he did. And by the way, there's no lawsuits. No one's ever sued him, which is just insane because, I mean, if that be the first thing that happened, especially when New york't changed literally changed the law to make sure you were allowed to sue for anything that happened whenever no statute of limitations. They did that for a year. It was basically the the you know, the the Full Employment Act for playing of attorneys. And no one has ever sued Matt Lower. And and I do think that you know, Matt was a symbol, and there was a lot of reasons why he was taken down. I mean, I think NBC had an incentive to take Matt down because of the the criticism they were taking for how they handled Ronan Farroh's Weinstein story, and so they got rid of a massive contract, and in doing so, they also prevented themselves from getting any further criticism on the me too front. But it wasn't because Matt Lower did anything that was remotely illegal or you know, frankly, you know, under different set of rules and guidelines, even wrong unless you're his wife. And and by the way, his kids I've seen firsthand his kids love Matt very very much, and I don't want to speak for them or from Matt, but I can assure you that what people's perceptions of Matt Lower are completely and totally different from reality. And by the way, he happens to be one of the happiest people I know, which is so good for him for surviving all this, But it doesn't make what happened anything close to being right. And I do think that men are under attack, and frankly, look, I'm married, so I'm I've been out of the dating or mating game for a long time. But from what I can perceive online TikTok, and you know, speaking to people in the real world, it seems as if we're in a real war of the genders, because now all the rules have changed, and nobody knows, you know, what they're allowed to do, what they're supposed to do, and women aren't happy about it. Men aren't happy about it. And fankly, I'm not even sure how anybody ever gets married and reproduces anymore. It's just I mean, I mean, it's so so complex and so ripe with with peril. I mean, if I was dating today, I you know, my gosh, I mean, the amount of things you got to be concerned about, it's tough, especially if you're especially especially if you're a prominent person. I mean, I don't I don't know how how it works. And I do think that men, heterosexual men are under attack, and and all sorts of people are under and you know, Michael, one of the things about the Michael Jackson allegation that I've never understood is, Okay, yes Michael was odd, and yes Michael gave off because of his voice and effeminate vibe. But it's clear that Michael was heterosexual by all, by all basic standards, and and and that's not consistent with this homosexual pedophilia or right. And no one wants to think about that because it's a gross thing to think about, I guess, but but no one ever wants to think about how And interestingly, Dave Chappelle, you know, go watch Dave Chappelle talk about this with Leaving Neverland. I mean, Dave Chappelle. I think hone's right in on this, this core issue of how ridiculous the actual allegation is when you understand the nature of humanity. So I think you're I think you're right that the pendulum has swung way too far. This is what we do as a culture. You know, we always overcorrect. Whether I sense there's a little bit of recorrection, I don't know if you agree with that or not. I think there's some coming back to sensibility. Yeah, it's it's starting too and I think too, I think part of it is part of the reason why you're starting to see that. And I was thinking about that as you mentioned about like what you're seeing on social media and TikTok and stuff is that it's cross cultural, Like I can see a black man who talks about this subject and a white man who talks about this and they're saying the exact same thing. They're saying the exact same thing. So I think anytime you have something like that where it's cross cultural, that's how we're kind of seeing a correction to the over correction. I think. I think it's we're starting to see that, and I think part of the reason is because black dudes and white dudes are saying the exact same thing about these issues. That's very interesting. Wow, that would be something if this is the issue that brings us back together on racial terms, which will be great. But I find that to be very, very very interesting. I also think the only reason why I have some hope in this in this realm, is that we've got literally hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution on our side of this thing right now. It's not like it's like, I mean, we're trying to change the nature of humanity in a few years after after we've been built. Our DNA has been built over you know, thousands and thousands of generations. In another way, and I find it very interesting when I you know, as I peruse TikTok to see all all these seemingly very popular videos from women who are complaining about the environment, like what have we done here? What have we done here? We've we've destroyed men and they're you know, I can't even get a date because everyone's afraid to even approach me, you know, basically. So I find that to be interesting and maybe, you know, a sign that things are correcting towards the norm. The conclusion of our interview with John Ziegler is coming up next here on the Outlaws true welcome back, welcome back. You're listening to the Outlaws. Now, let's get to the conclusion of our interview with John Ziegler. We've gotten to the point of absurdity with this and it's not And you do as as a man who is single and date and you you, and in the media, you think about this stuff a lot. I think about this stuff a lot, and you. It does it. It changes the way you move, it changes the way you you interact with people because nobody wants to get me too. Right, Yeah, now that's exactly right, well said. So as we as we wind out here, I got a couple more questions for you. So you have kind of like, within the last few years, built a reputation of willing to tackle cases that nobody wants to touch. Yeah, has that had an impact? Has I had a negative impact on you personally, on your career or anything. Have you seen any backlash or blowback from being willing to tackle to Michael Jackson case or the Matt Loward case or did Joe paternal case or anything like her? Well, this is a subject that my wife is very passionate about because she doesn't understand why I do any of this. And you know, there's no question that this has had a delatorious impact on my life and my career, which are obviously connected. I mean, I'm not going to whine about it because I knew what I was getting myself into. Did I think that it was going to maybe turn out a little bit better than it has from a career standpoint, Yes, But I also knew that the way that it has turned out was very, very possible because I knew that the landscape and we are living in a world, Darvo where the truth is no longer as I call it, the coin of the realm. When it comes to the media, it is all about popular lives. Popular lies are where the money's at. Unpopular truths are actually contradictory to the goal of making money, both from an outlet standpoint as well as from an individual commentator or personalities perspective. And people need to understand that, I mean it is that is a fact, that is not you know, there's something that occasionally happens that is now the reality, whether it's no matter what kind of media you're in, the popular lie will beat the hell, especially in social media because think about we're now dominated by social media. Social media is all about what popularity. If you see a post, if you see a post that's been liked ten thousand times and you know, shared a thousand times and has a million views or whatever, you're going to be far more likely to share that right than you than you are if you see that it's not popular, especially if it's controversial. And so this has a self fulfilling prophecy. And so you know what, what already fits people, their their prior beliefs or their prior biases, whatever makes them feel good, whatever narrative makes them feel the best, is what's gonna win. But that's not conducive to the truth, because oftentimes the truth is the opposite that. And now I'm a truth guy, and you know, I'm living I'm basically a square peg in a round whole world at this point because the truth really has very little power. It is only occasionally and coincidentally, the truth wins out. You know, I grew up believing that in most cases, of not all cases, the truth would win event Chilli. I no longer believe that. In fact, I think that if it's a controversial truth, that it takes basically a miracle for that truth to win. And that's a really sad state of affairs. So yes, the answer question is, I you know, I have suffered tremendously professionally, psychologically, you know, in every possible way that I can think of. How much damage that'll be, I don't know a long term to my kids. I'm sure there'll be at least some at least financially. But when I do it differently, I you know, it's probably still a little too early to tell for sure whether I would do it differently. But I mean, I uh, you know, I'd like to say I sleep well at night, but for some reason, I keep waking up early these days. But I don't. I don't have a problem getting to sleep because I my conscience is clear, right right. And you know, it's interesting what you said about the truth, because Charlotte May from the Breakfast Club he says this all the time. He says that, you know, people don't care about the truth when the lie is is more entertaining, right, Yeah, And we're living in a world now that amplifies that, you see, we used to live in a world. Look, the media has always had problems, right, but you know when I grew up in the eighties and even to the nineties, the media was still somewhat responsible and had and largely had control over popular narratives. Well, now they've completely lost control because of fragmentation, cable news, the Internet, social media. It's it's a complete free for all now. And so now whatever is popular is what wins the day. And there's nobody who is trusted enough to be an oar border of truth. Nobody, And and that's a really dangerous situation. I mean, I you know, it's quite possible that, depending on how things go in the next month or two, that I may just drop out of public life in twenty heading into twenty twenty four, because I just cannot even bear to think about the idea of commenting on a you know, rematch between Joe Biden and Donald Trump for a year. I just I just I just can't. I mean, see her, I can't do it. I just I can't do it. It's gonna be a crap show of epic, epic proportions. And then you introduce artificial intelligence into the whole thing. Yeah, oh my, oh my god, I mean it is going to be a complete crap show. And I just, you know, I'm tired of beating my head against the wall. So it's possible that you may, you know, you may not see much of me in twenty twenty four. But yeah, it's get a lot, it's getten a lot harder for people to the discern between what's real and what isn't, especially like you mentioned with the a A stuff that that is freaking horrifying, Like it's terrifying. Oh, I'm convinced, and I've predicted this on on Twitter, and it's not a difficult prediction, but I'm convinced that with AI, we're gonna see videos of both Biden and Trump that are gonna look one hundred percent reel that will be believed by the partisans on both sides that are fake, that that are gonna have an influence. I mean, like, I'm I'm convinced that we're going to see a video of Joe Biden seemingly using the N word that's going to be created and and it's going to be believed by a lot of people. You know. Similarly, I'll bet there'll be a video Trump, you know, mocking white trash and his vote, you know, his voters, because that those are the two things that would theoretically cause the greatest amount of harm to each candidate. And and trying to tell people what's true and what's not it's going to be almost impossible in this era. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's very scary stuff. So the close here to kind of recap and and and circle back to where we started. So it looks like the whole situation is going to go to trial. What why would do you think Wade, Wade and James have they thought this thing through about letting this thing go to trial. That's a great question because if I was them, I would never want to go to trial, right I would? And so I don't have a great answer for that, other than they have nothing else to lose at this point, and they may have lawyers telling them that the estate is going to make a settlement offer before we get that far. That's what that's It's the only thing that makes any sense to me, right, is if they bluff and pretend that they really want to go to trial, that that maybe the estate will throw them a couple of million bucks, right, And that's I guess theoretically possible. I mean, you know, obviously, when Michael Jackson was alive, a similar thing happened with what I believe to be a false accusation. So but now you have different people running the show, and you don't have to you know, you don't really have as much to protect because Michael's no longer with us. So I don't anticipate that being what happens. But that's really the only scenario that makes sense to me, because I agree with you, these guys know they're lying. I mean, it's obvious from from the outtakes from Leaving Neverland and the interview that they did with Oprah. They know they're lying. They know this is a fraud. Now, is it also possible that the way leaving Neverland was embraced East and with Oprah being part of that and in the media jumping on board and them getting they gotta remember, they got through you know, interviews with Gail King, Oprah's best friend. Boy. That was really difficult, but you know, they were They were able to get through the movie, the Oprah interview, the Gail King interview without any without the mainstream media saying these guys are a bunch of effing liars, right, So maybe they think they can fool a court. That's possible now if they've got to brain their head. They know that the estate is going to be coming at them far more, you know, far more vigorously than anyone else has at this point, and that they're very, very vulnerable. But I can I can see a combination of a lawyer whispering to them that hey, you know, just be patient, they're going to settle, and or the belief that hey, we already duped you know, HBO and everything that's surrounded that maybe we can do a court and not having anything to lose because these guys don't have anything going on in their lives, and with the pot at the end of the rainbow being you know, so potentially lucrative. I can see that making some sense to them, so that would be my theory. Yeah, all right, let everybody know how to follow you, sir. On social media, your podcast all of good stuff. Well, my podcast is called The Death of Journalism. You can get that word if you get your podcasts, so check out and subscribe to the Death of Journalism. And on Twitter, which is you know where you can find me on a multi daily basis. I tweet quite a bit, at least as of right now. My handle is zig man Freud z I G M A N Freud, which is a really terrible Twitter handle, but that's what it is, Zigmund Freud. And if you follow me, I'll almost certainly follow you back. All right, John Zigler, thank you so much. Math coming on a show and spending some time was really appreciated. Darbo, always great to talk to you. One more time. I want to send a special shout out to John Zigler for coming on the show. We really appreciated. We are out of here. We'll see you next time. Peace. This has been a presentation of the FCB podcast Network, where real talk lifts. Visit us online at FCB Podcasts dot com.
