This is the FCNB Podcast network. A praas Masoda day that we won't to say, then, we won't to say, oh we got it does? No one can take that oway. This gonna be okay, A preassday that we won't to say, then we won't to say, oh we got it does? No one can take that oway. Don't say this don't be okay. Hey, everybody, welcome back to another episode of Just Listen to Yourself with Kia Davis. I'm your host, Kira Davis, and this is the podcast where we take hot topics, hot button ideas, and we discuss the talking points on those ideas and we draw them all the way up to their logical conclusion. Today is a J Lty plus, which means I get to interview whoever seems interesting to me, and I promise if you stick with me, you'll you'll follow why I wanted to have this conversation today. But today, to get started, I want to introduce my friend, my personal friend and a pastor in Oslo, Norway. Cameron. I have never said your last name, but I'm going to say, and you tell me if I said it right? Okay on your stat even close, that's okay? Nobody's even close. So and it's actually different. So it's a Norwegian name. You said, I'm here in Oslo. I'm an American myself from California. Nobody's gotten my name right once. So in the United States, my family says Honestead, which is unjustifiable based on the collect letters that we would pronounce it that way. And in Norway it's pronounced oh masta. And so it's interesting. In the United States, everybody could get my name, last name, not a chance. Now in Norway, everyone sees the last name and there's like, hey, I get that, but what's they can't get Cameron to say come at un or camp or there's no uh, there's no good Regian way to say it. So it's a very strange experience. You know, I was in California for nearly forty years and no one got my uh, no one got my last name. Right Now I'm in Norway and everybody does but can't handle Cameron. That's hilarious. That is really funny. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't have known, and I don't know much actually about Norway, and so I want to if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself to my listeners and landing in a little bit. You just said you moved from California. That's how we know each other. You know each other few mutual friends, but you moved. Now, Cameron, this is why I find you so interesting because one day you came into our little chat room family that we share and you said, hey, uh, I'm moving to Norway. God has called me to minister to north in Norway. Yeah, weirdary, And I thought, wow, I've heard a lot of people say I'm going to Africa, Brazil. I've never heard anyone say, hey, guys, I'm going to be a missionary in Norway. So tell us a little bit about that journey. Yeah, now those places, that's where the real missionaries go. The rest of us, the wannabes, end up in Europe. So yeah, here's what I'll do is I'll trust you to be the governor to sort of slow me down or speed or whatever if I'm saying too much or not enough. But yeah, So I was born and raised in southern California. My family we lived for one year in Sallic City when I was in seventh grade, and that was awful. It was a beautiful place, but it was just a tough year. But otherwise we're in the Inland Empire in southern California, and that's where I spent most of my life. But you can tell by my weird last name. My family's heritage on both sides of Norwegian. And so my wife Whitney, and I and at this had two daughters, Cherson and Celia, and we had one of those credit cards, you know, where you get points or miles or whatever, and we'd had it for a third year. So we finally had enough points that if we took the cheapest flight on the cheapest day, we could afford to come to Europe. And I was able to wade my Whitney to do it because we had to go before our baby turned two, because she could fly for free. I was like, listen, once the kid turns too, we've got to buy her a take like able to do it, So we set out to I guess to here. We came to Norway into Denmark and we spent a few days in Dublin. It was really wonderful. But in the lead up to that trip, I started to wonder about the spiritual state of Norway. At that time, I was an associate pastor at a quickly growing church in southern California, and that's kind of that was my training. What I always wanted to do was to be a pastor. And I had just wondered, like, what's going on in Norway? What do they think about God? Are they still Christian? Because in my family, the men and my family have been pastors for centuries in Norway, and so in fact, I have I think it's a fourth great grandfather, maybe it's third, I don't remember how you count them, but my great granddad's great granddad was a farmer and pastor in Norway who moved gave the farm to his brother, moved to Minnesota. Imagine that, and in fact, his brother continued to give the farmed his children. So I have a cousin called Morton who still runs and owns the farm that my family has been from forever. So it news that if you've ever met Americans with norwansa we were very proud of that fact. We really love to be Norwegian, even though we kind of aren't anymore. We just have hard to say names. But nevertheless, I wanted to listen the in myfe I've always been pastors, what's going on in Norway, and I learned, you know, I made some phone calls and did some research, did research. I you know, I went to Google University and some and talk to some people on the ground who kind of described it to me and just broke my heart. It was really it was troubling to hear given my my family's history and how my relationship with God is and and the truth of the Gospel and all of that. So we came to Norway for vacation. We met some Christians in Norway and spent some time with them, and I got to see sort of firsthand what that was like. Now, at this point, I had never suspected I was that. I my wife and science teacher teaches chemistry and biology, and we'd always like, we're thankful that there are missionaries, and we're like glad it's you guys, Like we're glad we have you to do it. That's not anything either of us had ever signed up for. But I was just troubled in my heart and what God will to do and in my relationship with God. I don't have many of those like God is telling me to do this, or God is speaking to me clearly. Moments I've only had a couple in my life and this was one of them. Was just an over working sense that his desire for me, he was leading me to minister in So I was kind of playing with that idea and kicking it around. And we came here on vacation and it was very clear to me, like my feet where we got here to Oslo, it's like your feet are at home. This is where you're meant to be. This is what you're supposed to do. And then it took a few years to get from from perceiving that this is where God wanted me to be to actually being on the ground here. And those few years were developing a team, figuring out what it means, learning a whole lot of stuff, growing in a whole bunch of ways. And so eventually my wife life and I came. So we are missionaries with ational board, and we came with some people from our church who are self funded. They're here as students in Oslo, here with us all with the ambition of starting a church. It's going to do things a little bit non traditional kind of way. And we got here a little I'm looking at the clock like that's going to tell me how long I've been here, like to the minute, stupid, but we've been here a little over two years. It was two years in September, so not quite two and a half years. So I'm fascinated by what it was about Norway that broke your heart? What did you see when you went there? Because I'm so sorry, Kira. I admittedly something changed on my side and I can't hear you. Have you lost have you lost me too? Oh? If we lose each other? Pushed through that, because we do. We have local recordings and boarding on both sides of this, both sides of this. Okay, well, yes, if you stand by for just five seconds, I'll fix it. My daughter came over here and unplugged something. I think it's okay. I think I'm back. Yeah, I see you here. You fine? You hear me? Okay, Okay, I've got you. So sorry. She's trying to say, Hi, I don't know if you can see you. Okay, So I'll just start my questions break in here. What I don't know much about Norway. I know that that they're very proud of their alpine skiers, and and I know they have like a pretty international hockey team. But when I think about Norway, and I think about that area. I think about Christmas markets and snow and really the seat of Christianity. I'm a big fan of American history, and so all the stories that I've read about hours traveling over there and then leaning on the King of Norwayians, it feels like it has such a rich Christian history. I just found it odd. I don't know what you mean when you say you went there and people seem like people seem as an American. Every indication I get from my news media is that the people in Scandinavia period are the happiest people on earth. They have free healthcare and yeah, the government a socialist government, if you will, and they seem to be living like a pretty decent Western life. And so it's hard to imagine, you know what, what's the disconnect here? Why does it seem like that's a place that needs missionaries or why is it a place that needs missionaries? Sure? Sure, so, Yeah, Norwegian has a really rich Christian heritage. They've been Christian here for a thousand years or so, and in really lovely beautiful ways. Christian values sort of saturate their culture and their expectations and the way that they treat one another in ways that surprised me, and I think it would surprise most Americans. So like, here's so everyone here is on Facebook, but most people just use it. They use it differently than they do in the States. But here a couple examples. Like all of the children, you put a little tag in their clothes. All the kids have little stickers inside of all of their clothes with like the kid's name and mom's phone number. Because if you drop your jacket, somebody will pick it up, hang it somewhere, take a picture of it and text you and hey, this jacket. I've hung it up here. This is where it's at, and no one's going to take it. You can have complete confidence that when you get there that it will be hanging up waiting for you. Or like when you're in Norway, you are on the grid. So if you live here, I can look up your name, phone number, address, whatever. It's like, if you drop a wallet, somebody will look for some identifying thing in there, look for a credit card or whatever and look you up and call you and say I found your wallet at this place and it's at my house and we'll give it back to you. It's it's crazy, So there's that that kind of social and then just generosity. But Norwegians in general are kind of are kind of cold, so you wouldn't think so like they'll help you with anything, but they're but we're used to sort of being wood on and attended to in the United States, so Americans tend to think Norwegians are a little bit cold and distant, which compared to Americans, they are, but my opinion, overall, tend to be more generous and helpful and caring. So that was that was to speak about how they are Christian values here, like they don't know where that comes from. You talk to them about their moral intuitions and they don't really know where they come from. It's just obvious. We talk about things like why should I why should I help somebody instead of hurting people for my own benefit, and they're looking like that's the dumbest question, Like it's obvious, of course you don't hurt people because it hurts them. So we'll start back Norway. They've been Christians for as years, but in the last generation, maybe two generations, they've secularized very very quickly. And I don't know exactly what to attribute that to. But the way that it is now is almost every Norwegian is baptized when they're born, or very close to when they're born. Almost every Norwegian member of the Church of Norway, which until about ten years ago was the state church. The king was the head of the church, like in the UK, so the sovereign was the church. It's no longer the official religion of Norway, but it is still a department of the government. So almost everyone is baptized. Almost everyone belongs to the Church of Norway, which is which is Lutheran in name. It's an interesting it's an interesting thing. And then almost everybody confirms their baptism when they're fifteen is years old. But that's a whole culture thing. So we have is a population of people who have been baptized, are members of a Christian church and have been confirmed, but almost none of them believe in God, especially in any serious way. So more more now than a few years ago, I'm hearing people say things like, man, oh, dear being something more like, I don't know that just rocks and water and time and thunder and lightning, like explain all of the stuff, but I wouldn't call that God or whatever. And even if God does exist, you know, my name's on the list. I got baptized. Let me get I'm good. They call it fire insurance, which is that bums me out a little bit, but uh yeah, yeah, but there's a sense that that that they're good. I lost you one more time. Care, I'm so sorry. I'm gonna take I'm gonna take these out and we're just gonna do it. Can you hear me? Okay with a computer's microphone? Yeah, I can hear you perfect? Yeah, okay, good. Then I'm just going to ditch all of this. I told my daughter unplugged something and it's having trouble connecting. Anyways, here, let's move this so we don't blame we don't blame the bad audio on a good mic. So so yeah, so you have another part of the question. So why does Norway need missionaries? So actually I describe part of the problem because nobody knows Norway needs missionaries because if you look at the government statistics, you you ask people who compile this data, like the Joshua Project. As far as Christians are concerned, it looks like an accomplished You've got eighty percent Christian or Christian adherent. That's not the place, and it's one of the most expensive places in the world to live, especially Osto, so it's not the kind of place that you're sending people. There are more obvious places where they have more obvious sort of humanitarian needs, which I think are easy to attach and connect to the Gospel. It's way cheaper to send people, so you get so you can do you can do more things for the same amount of resources. And when money is coming from from donations, that's really important. But I think you I don't know if you'll be surprised, but maybe whoever's listening might be surprised to know that. You know, Christianity has a reputation of being like the European religion, but Europe is the least christianna uh uh continent on the planet, and Norway kind of leads the pack than that. So almost no one here believes in God. Some are open to the idea that there's something more Men still identify as Christians like those are weird conversations to talk to someone who calls calls himself or calls herself a Christian and they say, oh great, what do you believe about God? Like I don't believe in God. Not weird, I sappy right, gotten to why I want to have or what has really what has really stuck in my crap that's stuck in Myra's because when I when I that was what I noticed. That was what I noticed, if you will, of like Western if you will, Lanity and all the histories there and the buildings and the markets and and as you say, even reflected culturally, but it was so godless. And I know that America is getting that way, but We're still in a place where I wouldn't hear necessarily the host of a of a family friendly late night talk show making front making fun of zombie Jesus, but I would hear that in London. It just seemed sort of normal, like, of course we all think Jesus is ridiculous and Christianity is ridiculous. And it made me start thinking about the decline of Christendom and how I believe that's where we are in history, and we're experiencing that here in the United States, and I really don't think it's we're reversing paths here, and so I'm fascinating by comparing the history that has passed with with what is now I sounded like Kamala Harris just now, but I'm really say it again then you'll really sound like I'm fascinated by the idea that all of this has sort of happened before. You know, we've seen it in the Old Testament, right where the Jews became secular slowly, their institutions were overcome by the culture at large, and then God had to, you know, take them out into the desert for forty years, and you can start seeing echoes of that. And I'm just fascinated by how secular causes, even pagan causes. I would say, at this point, pagan issues and pagan corners are slowly co opting Christendom, the Christian language, They've co opted our universities. We're seeing it in our churches now and I'm watching this in real time, and Europe's already ahead of us. And so I wanted to talk to you because that is one of the things I'm most interested in camp. How do you minister to a population that already think they're Christian and as you say, they're already soaked in these Christian values and they live them out and they get baptized and they go to church you know, once or twice a year maybe or whatever. How do you give christ to a population like that, people who already think they have them? Yeah, so it's tough. So I think I wouldn't characterize the people here. So they do think Christian to them, that's something to do with their national identity. So the way that Americans, so I'm going to be only slightly careful. I think the way that Americans learn about what Scandinavia is like is by way of left doing politicians, and they give you a very bad idea of what Scandinavia is like. So if you showed up in Norway and talked to them about their socialist government, then what, we're not socialists. Now. Their government is far to the left of any any American government, that that is true, but they're in maybe their social values kind of are, but I guess that's a different that's a different discussion. But they call their social democrats and and they would be they'd be I don't know about appalled or offended or just thinking that you're on you're uninformed if you if you think that, or you mentioned earlier, you know, they rate very high in all these happiness studies, you know, it's it's uh. Denmark is usually the example of Denmark, Sweden, Norway. They tend to rate rank very highly in happiness research. Talk to any Swede or Dane or Norwegian and will agree uh, by and large the gruth what I'm about to say, No, they are not. The reason that they rate so high in happiness studies is because happiness research is uh uh, I say, it's flawed, it's its foundations are kind of bad. But secondly, when one of the reasons is because it gives this false positive, the false positive of reporting that people are happy when they're not, and the individuals certainly are not. But as part part of the Scaninavia temperament is you don't complain about stuff, and so if you were unhappy, you wouldn't tell anybody. You'd just kind of you'd kind of be alone in depressed silence, and it would be very untool to admit to anybody, and never mind sort of blame it on your culture or whatever. So someone shows up with a happiness study survey, it's not going to capture the actual happiness of the people here. And truth is people here are lonely and they're depressed. They have all of those things that you said. So they have access to to socialized medicine. But it seems to work for the most part. It's not great, it's not perfect, and as a lot of the trappings you'd expect, but there aren't even this like five and a half million people in Norway. So it's an easier right, it's an easier bureaucracy to manage, and the government is closer to the to the people here, like I can walk up to the I can walk up and I think into I haven't tried to go into, but walk straight up to the doors at least of the Parliament building anytime. All all that, there are no gates, there are no barricades, and someone tried to blow it up several years ago. So it's just like socially very interesting. But anyway, so the question how do you minister to those people? I think that calling themselves Christian is Norwegians are pretty nationalistic. They're very proud of being Norwegian, and they're Christian in the sense that you know, Israelis are Jewish and Norwegians are Christian, and Saudi Arabians are Muslim, and so Norwegian we're Christian. That's who we are, but it doesn't really say anything about for a lot of Norwegians to say I am a Christian doesn't necessarily correspond with other beliefs they have about the world other than I identifying as Norwegian and that's their heritage. But that none of that was your question. Really, Your question was how do you minister these people who kind of have it all? And that's why I asked them, Yeah, yeah, so I have those conversations. I ask Norwegians, what's valuable to you? What do you believe about God? And you know, I'm not weird, I don't believe in God? Well why not? Un let's say, well, belief in God is like religion is something that people do in order to in order to survive life. That's a stupid way putting it, but in order to live life. So it gives you community, and it gives you a sense of hope, and it gives you some comforting answers for people who fear death, and it's it's a coping mechanism. And I think most people I've talked to don't say that is a bad thing. It's not an insult, but it's like it's a crutch. The religion. You use. People use religion the same way that a person with a broken leg uses a crutch, like it's good for you, it's helpful. But people with healthy legs don't need crutches. And we Norwegians. We are wealthy, we're well educated, we have a great healthcare system. They like they they live. Every photo you take of this place is like a screen saver. They live in the most beautiful place ever. So they're kind of like there, like all of your pictures. Can always share pictures and they're just family pictures that pick of the kids to school. Every every picture he sends it truly is like a postcard. Hot topics, the news of the day, in depth interviews, and a whole lot more. It's The Outlaws Radio Show. Subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, iHeart, or wherever you get your podcasts today, that's out Laws, The Outlaws Radio Show, n FCB podcast. It's crazy and I take them all with just my dumb old iPhone, like it's crazy. It's so beautiful. And so you ask people, why don't you have what's standing in the way of believing that God is real? And answers him like, well, we know that science is a thing, so and science doesn't tell us anything about God, and so religion is religion really rises to the level of hobby, and it's a hobby that you participate in in order to in order to be comforted and when you when you need something to lean on. But you know, they kind of don't want to bother other people and and aren't particularly social, so it's not like there's a social need that it feels. So for most of nor regions, it's just not it's not anything they're really interested in doing. But they tend to be really thoughtful when you when you talk about it, they're really kind and thoughtful. They don't treat you like you're stupid. And and you know, we don't they don't. I haven't once heard about, you know, zombie Jesus or sky Daddy or any of the stuff that we experience in the United States or even in the UK, which is a different, different thing altogether. I know my dad, my father in law's a pastor and his he's retired now, but in the heat of his ministering days, he was did a lot of missionary work in Zambia, and so when he will go to Zambia, the way they minister there and probably with a lot of African charities, you're you're giving people food like, you're setting up provisions for people because that' it's what they don't have to walk, clean water, health care. And then you're bringing people in and then of course when they come in, you invite them to worship if you want, or invite them for prayers. And that's how you sort of show them the love of Chriscet by serving these very vital and very present, visible needs. And that's your way in to show and talk about the love of Christ. And you just said, well, in this country I live in, these people consider themselves well off, they consider themselves cared for. I wrote down what you said because this is really good. This is one of these things that's going to stick with me. You don't need a crutch if you have two healthy legs. And there's so many people running around running around thinking they have two healthy legs and they're just running around on broken legs leg worse. So what is your Do you have a church? Do you guys preach on the corners? Do you do you have prayer time? Do you how do you even get in there? I'm just yeah, it's it's tough. It's as we say, it's very cold, very hard ground. Because I mean, if we're going to we can torture that metaphor of broken legs a little bit. But like you said, you've got people running around on broken legs who you just how do you convince them their legs are broken? And it's really hard. So in other places in the world, there are obvious humanitarian things we can do to improve people's life and situation now, and there's something about having significant needs. I think that makes it easier to understand there's a heavenly father who provides for you. And in Norway, the state has become that so that, yeah, I'll leave that there. I think there I have some ideas about that, but the state has become the thing that fills those needs that typically church and we rely on the church and Christian community to do. And but what what we've thrown off having those needs met is also the truth that Jesus is the son of God and he's alive and relationship with him is the solution to the problem of death. That stuff has all gone, but they've they've kept some of these other nicities. So how so how do we minister here. So first of all, we're part of a church. So me and man name so me and my wife and my three girls and the three Americans are here with We're part of a church. It's a Norwegian Baptist church called Home Church. But we like we meet in a building and the uh and they're just excellent. There are really good, really solid Bible believing Jesus loving churches here, and the Christian community call it evangelical. I don't mean that as a political term, but I mean like Christians who are who take seriously uh, the Gospel something like that, and and that everyone should know it. Bible believe. There are Bible believing sure, people who are who are likely to tell other people about the faith something like that. There are good, solid, evangelical, gospel loving, Bible believing, theologically solid churches in Norway, and they're vanished, only few and a lot fewer than in the United States. But I think there's also a level of honesty among those kinds of Christians here that's kind of refreshing. So maybe you're in what you might think of as a traditional or typical American church, you can see everybody doing all the right kinds of things right singing the right words to the right songs with their hands and their right posture, but you might not be sure how sincere any of those people are, and they might not be sure themselves. And I think that's I think it's a real risk. I think that's something that's undesirable. And I don't know, undesirable isn't the word, but something we need to keep an eye on, as Christians are people who outwardly seem to do the right things but have no relationship with Jesus in the kind of church I'm describing in Norway. People are in Norway in general, people are just honest. They'll tell you no, I don't believe in God. And then the Christians who are here attending and doing what you might think of evangelistic is probably better than evangelical, but evangelistic type Christians. You know that they're for real, and you know that they're what I say is Norwegian Christians mean it, and we had their cultural Christianity is a different thing. So we're part of your I want sem here because he said that's interesting to me. I'm sitting here in my Orange County home and a lot of what you're describing in Norway. It feels to me like what we deal with here in Orange County, which is a Welsh population that believes they're uh walking on two healthy legs and in an and evangelical Christianity here is not just common, it's fashionable there. It actually has its own celebrity crowd. I mean, I live in the land of Rick Warren and the Megachurches, and I mean it's and it's really it's crazy. But it is hard to minister to people here because you said something that's interesting. You said, Norwegians are honest, but they're not afraid to tell you, oh I'm not I don't believe in God, and just tell you plainly or you know, or not even have to define it as a struggle. Just like this is the thing here. It's really hard to get people to tell you anything about their relationship with God other than maybe I believe in him. Because there's also some kind of status that's connected to it. It's the culture of perfection. I have told this story on my show before, but I ran in one Christmas eyes shopping an apartment store. My neighbor from down the street not there anymore, who described herself as a trophy wife, a proud trophy wife, like she was a stay at home mom. Aus we went to work. They had the you know, the luxury vehicles and the million dollar home and all of that. And I ran into her on Christmas and you know how you see people in the store and you're like, oh, I hope I don't. I hope she doesn't stop and talk to me because I'm so I gotta go. And I saw her. That's when God gets you, though, That's when always God gets me, right, It's the second I'm like, oh no, I don't want to talk to this person. I don't feel good. That's hilarious. Every Norwegian is like that when they see their friends with It's like, if we make our contact, we'll say hi, but we're not going to talk to each other otherwise. I love that. And so she saw me and she said here a high and I said, oh, hi, Merry Christmas, how are you? And that's all it took and she just broke. She just started and she started telling me how the mortgage crisis had hit her husband's business. He hadn't had any incomfort months, and she had no food in her house. And she said her son thinks that, she said, my son thinks I'm on a diet, but really I can't afford food in the house, and I just give the food to him, and you would never know it, Cameron. I mean, her husband drives a land Rover, they live in a million dollar home, they have all of the trappings, and she had her cupboards were bare, and she was at this department store with a coupon that her mom had given her for a free toy, and so she was going to get that for her son. All that to say, and eventually we prayed together and and eventually we were able to get her some help and get her some food. All that to say that there was no indication, no way to know that this woman and her family were suffering, and they certainly weren't going to tell us. They certainly weren't going to be weren't going to be honest about it. And that is one thing that I've always said about the difference between say, living in the hood, when you know where we came from, and then moving into the suburbs and living in a place like this. At least in the hood, I know you wear your paint on your sleeve, and I know what you need, and I see your needs, but it's really hard I find it. I do think it is a special challenge, Gama. I think this is another reason why I'm so interested in your ministry. I think it is a special challenge to minister to people who on the outside already have it all together. It's really hard to tell somebody, you know, who has convinced themselves that the cast on their leg is really their leg, that there's actually a real leg under there. Yeah. Yeah, so that's you said a lot of interesting a lot of interesting things. So I think it's definitely true. In the United States, being a Christian still has more well, I has cultural and political purchase that it doesn't have in Norway. So in the United States, who have you know, so called progressive Christians where they just hollow out all of the all of the meaning of Christianity and they fill it up with with their political agenda because there's still because there's still profit to be made calling yourself a Christian. You'll be taken seriously, or there's there's a whatever. For some reason. They want to believe all different things but still have that identity because it's valuable in some way. I don't think we really have that here. The churches are all very liberal, but we don't have the same kind of progressive Christianity. People just not call themselves a Christian, like, no Christians believe this, and I believe these things, so I'm not a Christian. So that so that the cultural Christianity here is different than what we experience in the United States. But yes, we have a I think a similar dynamic. People who outward have it all, have everything taken care of, or have a they have it all right. We're healthy, wealthy, they're attractive, they live in a beautiful place, they're well educated. So they don't see the need to take on that certain that hobby. I mean people have I talk to people about reading the Bible and they're like, I'm just not interested. I like, no, thank you. It's like somebody asking me to read the Harry Potter series or whatever. It's like, it's good thing against it, but that's just not how I'm going to spend my time. Right, That's like I'm good for you, but no thank you. But we somewhat this way. Here's another metaphor that I'm going to torture. But they talked about relationship with people in terms of a castle, and you have the you have the outer walls, and then you have like the inner walls to the actual castle. And they said Americans have very low outer walls. So wave to people on the street, we say hello, we say how you doing at the store? We don't like if if we see each other we have to say hi, Like you sense that anxiety, like if this person's season, you shouldn't say hi to me, And I don't want to talk to anybody. So very low outer walls that are easy to overcome, but then like a really securely locked castle door, we don't we don't let you in. Most people in the United States, if you ask someone who is struggling, how you doing that, you go, I'm good, I'm fine, how are you merry Christmas? Right? That most of the time would be the end of the conversation, and that confuses and Norwegian people. You shouldn't ask a Norwegian how are you? Because they wonder why you're asking that question, because that's only something that people who are close to you ask and it demands an answer. So they know Americans do that, so if you say it, they know that. It's kind of a quirk of our culture. But how are you? Is that's an intimate question, that's not a which is the exact opposite of United say how how are you? How you doing? Just means hello? Norwegians are opposite. They have a very secure, fortified outer wall, but then once you make it past that, then a they have like an unlocked door to their hearts on the inside. So that's why Americans think that Norwegians are cold. That's why because when you say, hey, how are you, they don't really have a response, and they wonder why you're asking that. Or if you wave to someone on the street, they do not wave back to you. They think it's weird. That's something you only do to someone who's close. Because even if you see your friend walking on the street, you wouldn't wave at them. Wow, they all kind of hope, Oh yeah, how do you greet each other in Norway? We don't. Yeah, we don't bother with any of that. You greet people that you that's not I'm exaggerating it a little bit. I think you guys, you walk down the street in Oslo and you see your friend calming down the street the opposite way, and maybe you haven't seen him for a couple of days. You don't like wave and say hi Fred, good to see you, or nothing. You just keep walking and pretend you don't see him. Yeah, So I don't want to don't want to give the idea that happens one hundred percent of the time. But as a rule, no, I mean, if you're going somewhere together, like if you're meeting up, if you're meeting at the bus stop, and it's like it's been agreed to, or you're meeting at the shop or the store or whatever, then they greet each other just like we do. That would be a very normal there'd be a very familiar circumstance. But if yeah, but if it's as you describe, you're on opposite sides of the street and you see each other, I think your typical Norwegian is thinking, oh there's Kira. That's nice. But you wouldn't acknowledge each other, say hello, catch up. It's just something you do. And so I have to I'm gonna I know where this is how jlt wis go though, cam we just there's all the tangents and yeah, that's fine. I'll go wherever wherever you take us. Don't feel stressed about the directions we're going here. But I'm fascinated by this because earlier on you said people here are very lonely and very depressed, and we're seeing here in the US. You guys were you guys were in Oslo through COVID, right, we were here at the end of COVID. We came during COVID time in a totally miraculous way. I'll tell you that story sometimes if you'd like to hear. But yeah, yeah, there were like no other Americans as a rule, were not allowed in Norway when we got here. So yeah, so you but you knew what we were dealing with here in the States and in California going on. And now what's happening, Cam, Is that a year or so after we're sort of pulling out of this COVID spiral, the loneliness epidemic is starting to really sink in. I took a trip up to Canada, up to Prince Edward Island, where I'm from, to see my family. Hadn't been there in years, and wow, I was It's a small island, it's a rural island. Everyone knows everyone, and was just blown away by how separated everyone was. And no one wanted anything to do with anybody else. Was really hard to get anybody to come out and like visit, not because they didn't want to see me, but everybody was like they didn't want to see each other. So I wonder if you have any sense that of how that loneliness and depression in Norway, what the result of that it? Like I would look here in the US this point moving forward, I would say, oh, COVID is really when that started. There might be argument to be made about some other political issues that I won't get into on this particular episode, but I could point to some things. Right, But how do you see a connection between how lonely and depressed people may be in in Auso and in Norway really and the complete decline of spiritual Christianity for lack of a better term, or do you Yeah, it's I have to think about that first EEC. So I'll tell you that it was a bit of a meme here when government started making COVID policy. And remember very early on it was social distancing and that was a joke here in Norway because that's just how they are. So if you go to any Norwegian bus stop, everyone takes public transit and you go to any Norwegian bus stop and people were standing six feet away from each other. Anyways, So the joke was like, you know, it's a picture of Norwegian's at a bus stop before social distancing, and a picture of them at a bus stop after social distance the same photo or hey, we've got a social distance, and they're like, okay, fie, like like that's just how that's that's how they are anyway. So uh so they're they're not Norwegians. They are not rude and standoffish. They just don't have as low castle gates as you or whatever outer walls as Americans have, and so how but they are lonely, they are depressed, and how do those things go together. What's interesting is I think God built us with social need and built us for community. You know, God did not did not save us to be orphans. And you know, God, when he got saved, he could have snatched you into heaven, right, but he didn't. He left us here and gave us a lot of commands and instructions about how we're supposed to be in the world that include one another. It's it's not it's not single or isolated or or just individuals. So when people say things like I can worship God by myself, I don't need a church or something, I go, well, I mean, yeah, I guess so, but you're kind of missing the point. It's like saying I can go to school by myself. I mean you can, you can self study, but you're you're missing Maybe that's a bad that's a bad analogy, but you're missing the point where when you're made for community, and even people who socially don't have the same breadth of social need that Americans typically typically have still are built for community and still are social creatures like in their in their souls. So I think the way that that plays out here is people have hobbies and they find ways and reasons to be around one another. It's sort of specific individuals. It's it's very hard for Americans to make Norwegian friends. It's been easy for us because we are Christians, and the Christian people here are awesome, but typically, I mean, the the way they put it is, if you want to make friends, then you go drinking on Friday nights, because that's the that's the only time Norwegians loosen up enough to make a new friend. Otherwise, you have to have a reason to know somebody, like you work with them, like in the same like in the same immediate area, or you go to school with them and you share a class, like, you have to have a reason to be friends with each other. So yeah, and it's also a high I should say here, it's also really high value self reliance. We'll call it that. I only remember the Norwegian word for it because I'm not cultured now, but being self sufficient, self reliant is a very high value. So if you were having trouble, and if you were if you had needs, whether they're social or otherwise, you just wouldn't bother anyone else those you would kind of take you kind of take care of them. And so I think people are thirsty for community. I think the church here, the Christians do it really well. And so you do see you do see some growth. We see a lot of growth, especially among particularly charismatic congregations that really emphasize community, togetherness and experience. That's something that I think is humans were just kind of thirsty for I should say so. Most Norwegians, non believing Norwegians would never set foot through of a church. It wouldn't occur to them that that's a thing to do, or that that's a place or a way even to find community even if they're hurting or I think in the United States we still have that, like we know where people care for me. I can go to church here. If you are poor or drug addicted or destitute, there are programs for that. You don't have you find any charity your community outside of the statement programs. And I think I'll just say that the rest of it, I have to think at a little bit about it. But what I here, I will say this when I talk to strangers Norwegians, which I do, so we evanalyze in various ways, and we talk to strangers on the street and you ask them questions like where do you what's your source of hope in your life? They look at you like you have just made fart. Sounds like they don't even have the categories to answer that question. You may have well just said nonsense, like hope, what do you talk? What do you mean? And that's difficult when we talk about things like sin and redemption, So you talk about sin, that's like, so if I talk to somebody about sin and redemption and how Jesus saved us. Imagine somebody stopping you on the street and saying, Kire, I've got good news. That murder charge, it's it's been forgiven. You don't have to go to prison. You'd like, what, I didn't kill anybody? What are you talking about? Right? You're you'd be a crazy person. Ah. I think that's akin to what it's like talking to people about about sin and forgiveness and the cross doesn't make sense to people because sin doesn't make sense because what do I have to pay for? And they have they have overall, they've they've they've divorced them from the Christian roots, but have overall sort of Christian social and moral values, and so it's like, what do I what? What do I have to be guilty of? Who? And then okay, so there's a god who thinks that the right that my rightful eternal destination is hell and damnation. I don't want anything to do with that bay and that makes that's really hard. It's again trying to convince people that you know that cast is that that that leg is a cast, but they don't have the conceptual framework or even the categories to discuss questions and those kinds of things, in those kinds of terms, how do you start with with someone like that? Is that the question you start with, that question do you have home? Or what do you have for? Not usually because it doesn't it doesn't tend to be a fruitful discussion. So when we're evangelizing, my I don't want to say approach, but my emphasis is how do we value questions? I want to know what is important to you and what's in your heart, And most people, especially in Norwegians, are not not quick to talk about those things. So you find excuses to get to that stuff. So I'll tell you a couple of our a couple of our strategies. This one is a little bit goofy, but it works. We put up a sign that says message to the world and just ask people if you could tell the world one thing, if there was one thing you know that you want the world to know, what would it be. And we get a lot of stupid answers, and we get some vulgar answers and people being silly, but we also get people saying serious stuff. And it's a bit of a trick because what they do is they tell you, like the most important thing the heaviest thing on their heart that day that they wish the world would know, and they'll write it down for you, and then you can talk about that and you talk about values. So similarly to asking people, where do you find hope, that's a question, that's a that's a conversation stopper. Nobody wants and nobody wants to have that conversation, never mind having even the tools to begin talking, and like, we're going to talk past each other for a long time. So I've learned to ask things to talk about, like what what do you think is wrong with the world? Like where do you see things that are broken? Try and avoid the term brokenness because that's a pretty Christian word and it means something. But where do you see that the world is broken? And no matter what they say, we can agree with it, which is you find instant common ground. And then we discuss why is the world broken? And I like to get it right back to the person. I don't try to be too finger pointy, because the point is not you're bad and I'm good, and I can you know, I can make you good. But we can talk about what's wrong with the world, and they can. It doesn't matter, And I mean politically, I'm way different than the people here, but they can talk about anything and I can say I agree with that, and where does that come from? Where do you think? And without the gospel there is no good answer to that question. So we can get to the gospel, usually usually pretty quick. So they want to talk about climate change, and I can say, yeah, it's really why aren't people taking care of this place? Why are people? Why is it that humanity is so is so able to value and consume resources rather than to care for and reproduce, and like where does that come from? Because they can't just say like curve of people or corporations or whatever, because we can bring it right back to ourselves. So a question I like to ask people after we've been having a conversation for a while about what's wrong with the world is I ask something like and how about you? Have you ever liked? Have you ever hurt somebody that you love and knowing what you were doing? And everyone says yes to that question, and then I always follow up with why why would you do that? Because most people's answer something like, well, no one's perfect, but that's not good enough. You just told me what your values are and you just told me that the problem with the world. Are these other people who don't see climate change as big as a problem as you do, or people who Americans who vote for Donald Trump or whatever. It's usually some political thing because those are the easiest things to point fing your said. But let let's know, let's talk about your heart, Like, what are you guilty of? Have you ever hurt somebody that you love? I have, and I'll be like, I'll tell them a story about how I did it this week. You know, have you heard someone you love? Yes, well, why you just told me that that violates your values? So why would you do something like that? And I think that that gets us to a place we have to recognize kind of you know, the point that Sultichnitsen made really beautifully is like, the line that divides good and evil is not between you and you and me, or between good people and bad people. Right, send all the prisoners to an island that'll take care of it. The line that divides good and evil straight down the middle of my heart, and to deal with it would mean to separate myself from myself. And that's a that's a fearful thing. But if we can get there and start that, Like that's where the good stuff is and where good conversations are. And in my experience, the people that I've talked to here, they're open to having that conversation and they're thoughtful. And when you tell them that you're a Christian and you like, I believe this the whole Bible, they might think it's weird, but they they they tend to they tend to respect that. They don't treat you like you're an idiot. In fact, one guy I asked him, I said, you must have questions for me, like I'm this weird American I believe the whole Bible is true. You don't get many of those in Norway. He goes, No, I don't know a single person like that. I said, well, what do you What questions would you have for me? He said, I guess I just wonder, like you seem so smart, why do you believe this stuff? And that was a really like gentle and lovely question to ask, because to them, it's just like, we know, that's not how the world works. Like I'm explaining how to do a rain dance. Well, if you wanted to rain, this is the dance you have to do so the gods will give you rain, and like, I'm glad your culture has that, But why that's weird? Why do you we have something we know that's not how it works. So you get a little bit of that but there, but respect that that's what you believe, and want to understand why you believe that thing and where it came from, and maybe not whether it's true or false. But they don't dismiss you as a as an idiot or or an unserious person for having that conversation. You said so many things there. This is why I'm supposed to be taking notes. I have a fifty year old brain now almost, so I don't hold the thoughts. But you said quite a few interesting things there. I loved, first of all, the idea of that line going straight down our heart, right the middle of our heart, and that is really this is a political show largely, but really it's a show about thinking through our ideas and feeling confident about what we believe by digging through the things you were saying. But one of the reasons I started to do this show is because of all the terrible division that I saw in politics, and I felt like part of this is because people aren't really thinking properly through their ideas, and it makes it easier for us to label people. But always in the bands of the show, regular listeners will know, always I say, and I mean it, I'm talking to you, no matter who you are, if you're on the right, if you're on the left, if you're fringe, you know, all right or progressive left is or whoever you think that I'm talking to you're wrong, I'm talking to you because at the end of the day, really it all boils down to how we will choose to treat other people. And you can't make people do or be something that you want. It never works and it always turns into disaster. And I love the idea of you sort of presenting people with that. And it's so simple. It really is the most basic thing of Christianity, isn't it. And here you are talking to these really intelligent people who have great educations and these great lives and probably believe they really do possess a lot of knowledge and if they what they don't know, they can just grab their phone and type in and they can find it out. And yet, yeah, the truth of the Gospel is this really simple concept and I think sometimes it's almost too simple for people. Well it is, and oh man, that's yeah. So I'll say so when I have that conversation, I asked, somebody, have you hurt somebody? Or you have you violated your moral principles? And everyone admits to that, and I say, why did you do that? I think the point of that question is, yeah, you know, it's easy to think that the problems in the world are coming from these other people who don't share your priorities. So we have these put a label on it, because you put a label on it, you know what what team they're on, whether you whether they're worth listening to, hating, dismissing, listening to, and saying the same things they say, like it just takes all of the all of the thinking, you don't you like, don't have to deal with that crap. You just you can describe what color shirts they're wearing, and are we on the same team, opposite teams. But the idea is those people on other teams are making things so bad. They don't share my priorities and I have the right ones, and if people were more like me, and everyone believes this, and it's sinful and it's satanic and it's straight from the pit of hell. But people, we here's talking to you. I guess since I'm talking to Kira that I'm talking to you too. But let's be honest about it and think that in general, we have this tacit presumption that if people believed and behaved like me, the world would be would be good and not bad. And so I want to I want to poke that thing. I want to I want to poke and torture and irritate. I want to be a pebble in your shoe, as Greg Kochel says, that thing that's just like it's hard to shake with that belief because it's not because it's not true. You're part of the problem. Is it's not the people who fit into a different category or you can label a certain way, or who don't have your priorities like you know what it is. It's a bunch of people who think that they're doing okay and that they have the right priorities and they're living a good life and they're doing and they're doing their best. But they're imperfect, and sometimes they hurt people that they don't love, that they hurt the people that they love and they would never do that on purpose, and they know it's wrong to hurt people and it's good to care for them. But nobody's perfect after all, Right, it's you know, seven odd billion, I don't know, whatever it's. However, many people who I think more or less are living like that. And of course we have evil people and people of great influence and whatever. But for the most part, I mean, like those those you can get rid of those and not and not affect the number of people. Right, Like those round down to zero. The rest of us we're just kind of doing our best, and we're trying to live a good life and do good as we see it, and take care of our families and all those kinds of things. And so when if if I can be a part of somebody realizing that, like, Okay, then you have these you have these high values, you have these demanding moral values and social values. Have you ever failed them? Sure? I have, Well why did you do that? Well? Hopefully that's a really that that can lead to a realization that when I see the problems that I see in the world, like I'm contributed to somes that people see in the world, and it's not because I'm It's not because I'm outwardly evil, it's not because I'm you know, committing some obvious atrocity. It's because there's something there's something in me that is unable to live up to my high moral demands. So even though I love somebody, and even though I would if you, I say is like, I would never hurt you. And then I do, like, where did that come from? And why am I unable to meet the demands of my own my own moral framework. And I think if we can start looking at that, then I think we can make real change. And this is I mean, that's part of part of my broader philosophy. I think one of the mistakes that Christians make is looking for call them top down solutions, like if we just put humanity under the right rules and with the right rulers, then we can force people to behave and do the and do the right things, and that's that's what's going to bring about ultimate social or cultural change. And I think I don't want to be too simplistic, but I think that that kind of view doesn't work. I think where it starts, Kira is with our hearts and recognizing that I'm one of the people that's putting wickedness into the world even though I'm doing my best. But where does like, where does where does the change start? How do we avoid our cell is right? This is really what we're talking about. Even if I think about what we're going through here in America right now with a lot of the issues with gender ideology and what's happening in our schools. You know, I ran for school board and all of the drama around that, and two things are happening. We're asking you're asking people, right, we're asking people that question. Why if everybody's flawed, but if you think you're generally a good person, why do you hurt even when you don't want to? Why do you hurt people even when you don't want to? What is that inside of you? Of course you and I know that's what sin is sin. It's not the act that thing that's inside of you that would make you do this thing that you don't want to do, that is sin. But the solution to that, it's the answer to the question why do I have this thing inside me? It can only be one of two things. A it's sin, and so there can only be one solution for sin. Right, You need a holy God who can erase sin, the author of everything. Or two, you have to reframe and say, well, the reason why I hurt people is because people hurt me. So it's I am blameless. You're either fully blameless or you are are fully guilty and trying to get good people. And this is even here in America. I mean I read it every day on Twitter, and I guarantee you I'm going to get letters from listeners that will say the same thing just because this is a common argument. But that I did the there is this weird thing that's happening in progressive Christianity too, which is worrying me. But the idea right that it's wrong to it. It's hurtful to tell people that they're guilty, it's hurtful to tell people that they're not good and that and and so I've even seen certain progressive pastors saying, how can you how can you pitch a god to people who the of his of what he offers is that you're worthless? Yea? And so how can you tell people their love when you're telling them they're worthless? And that's a tough a tough sell. It's a tough sell, but it's an easy So listen, Okay, I've got a lot to say about just this thing, so shut me up when it's time. But it's a that's this is another life. Hell, it's in the church and it's outside of the church, and it's a there's this subtle, subtle turn on a very intuitive truth, and the subtle turn makes it satanic and turns people away from God instead of toward him. So the way that we see this happen in the in the church is there's an evangelistic kind of strategy or may we'll call it an impulse. You see it among a lot of people. Well, what they want to do is they want to conn They're interested in convincing you about how much God loves you. And the way that they explain it is God loves you so much, he thinks you are so amazing, and he is desperate for relationship with you. And if you could just know how beautiful and amazing you are to God, then there's something like That's the way we see it. Yeah, of course it does. Of course it does. And there's there's a big kernel, there's a big nugget of truth there. The way that same thing happens in secular culture is this idea that you're perfect just the way you are there, You're already, You're already exactly what you need to be. And if there's any more perfecting, if you if you need to be polished up to whatever extent you still have some rough patches and non you know, unsmoothed, then you look in you and be more authentic and be even more of what you are because what you are is already perfect. And both of those things they here's the here's the the error. It's not an error, it's a lie. Here's the lie that both those come in in the terms in the terms of the person who's doing the evangelism trying to persuade you about how awesome and amazing you are to God. You are not amazing to God. And this is what How could you believe a God who tells you're worthless. No no, no, no, no no, no, you're valuable, You are not amazing. And by telling somebody you are so valuable and God just wants a relationship with you that now puts the attention and the focus on me and my amazingness. And God is not a God is not a petty and needy teenager who just need who needs to have you as a friend because he's obsessed with you. No, no, no, no no, it's not the point that you're amazing. It's that you're valuable and that the God of the universe saw fit to end your rebellion against him by paying for it himself with the blood of his son. Right. Economists will tell you that something's value is whatever someone's willing to pay for it. So if God was willing to pay for your adoption by the blood of his son, how valuable are you. That's a mind blowing thing to think about. But that puts the that puts the attention of the focus on God's goodness. And you don't have to be amazing. So in the days you don't feel amazing, and on the days you don't feel worthwhile, in the days that you know you've blown it and you know that you've fallen short, you don't have to wonder, Okay, does God think I'm less amazing today than he did yesterday? Or do I have to be more amazing to God in order to have a higher value. Okay, if I'm amazing now, well just imagine if I start doing all the right things and making the right kinds of friends and listening to the right music and saying the right magical words right, and then the way that it works out in secular culture, it's just exactly the same is you use the word worthless. So to say you're perfect is not the opposite, is not the solution to you are worthless. To say you're perfect just the way you are as a lie. But to say you're valuable just the way you are, You're not perfect, and looking inside yourself is just going to is going to amplify the all of your imperfections and all the things that drag you away from the God who wants to make you whole and complete and perfect and for you to live according to the nature he gave you in the first place. We're like a bunch of stray animals that love disgusting stuff but it all tastes good to us. And God's going no, no, no, no, like I aid you for something much better, and here's what it looks like. And to us, it looks like giving up the way of life that we're in love with and makes sense to us and is to find our lives so far, and God's going O all of that stuff is garbage, Like, stop eating garbage. I have something so much better for you, and it's because it's because I love you, and it's because you're valuable just the way you are, not because you're perfect. So eating more garbage doesn't perfect you. But there's nothing that's preventing you from stopping and turning away from the garbage and towards me. Right now. Your value to God is so high. God's not saying you're worthless. God's saying stop eating garbage. That's bad for you. And what our world is telling us is, how can you call people's dinner garbage? What kind of racist bigot but hateful? What pick your hate fable like they'll slap that on your forehead? What kind of hateful person are you to tell people that they're the things that are so valuable and important to them are garbage. I'm going no, that's That's not the point. The point is not your own worthlessness. The point is that what we're doing is bad for ourselves and it's opposed to the to the very good that design that God has for us, which is meant to live an eternal relationship with the with the maker of existence. Sorry you you push my preaching button, but you can see that it's the same. It's the same. Don't even apologize. Okay, so it's this, but it's the same lie told in both those contexts. We don't want people to to. The lie that Satan has us telling people is that you are awesome the way that you are, and God's not. God's saying you're not awesome. But my love for you has nothing to do with your own awesomeness. So you can so you were playing in the wrong game. Yes, it's God's awesomeness. And there's just nothing we have to do to earn his love. There's nothing we can do to flee or escape his love. It all depends on him, and he's already done it, and he does it perfectly, And so you don't have to worry about those days when you don't feel awesome. You don't have to worry about being being a more extreme version or a more purified version of what's already inside of your heart or blah blah blah. Like it's no, you're not perfect the way you are, but that doesn't stop God from loving you. In fact, he already does. He's already smiling at you, and he's already purchased your adoption into his family with the most valuable thing in existence, Like, you could not be more valuable to God. And it doesn't depend on how amazing or awesome you are, because you're not. And that's okay. You don't have to be. You don't have to be. You're not going to be, at least not in this life. That you're playing the wrong game. You're thinking about it in the wrong way. But that's a very powerful lie because it brings it puts a focus back on me, and it makes me think I have to be amazing to be worthy of God, or it just turns my heart away. How could you believe in a God who's calling you worthless or doesn't accept you for who you are, or thinks that your very existence is sinful or abominable or hateful or something like that. And it's like, Nope, you're just I get why you'd think that. I see that because, like I said, most of it's like ninety percent of this intuitive and true core, but it's wrapped in this poison that prevents you from getting to the true solution, to the true answer to the real and that answer, by the way, doesn't just tell us how we're meant to be for eternity, and it's in heaven with God. That's kind of shorthand, but in heaven with God. But it informs how we live now because our sin doesn't just separate us from God, it separates us from from one another, and it separates us from the world that He's made for us. And the solution to all of that, knowing how to live rightly and stop eating the trash is to is to have faith in God, so to trust what he said, and then to believe Jesus and do the things he said, because He's giving us the instruction manual for life well lived, and we ignore him and say, no, I'm going to keep looking inside myself. And as you know, the scripture say that the heart is incurably and desperately wicked and unknowable. But we keep looking at that thing for the answers about how to live life, and we're just we're we're we're playing from the wrong rule book, you know what I mean. Hot topics, the news of the day, in depth interviews, and a whole lot more. It's The Outlaws Radio Show. Subscribe to the show on Apple, Spotify, iHeart or wherever you get your podcasts today, that's O U T L A WUS, the Outlaws radio show, n FCB podcasts. Yeah, and that's the first. It's why I I don't blame people for sort of falling for that lie because we're all and we're all looking for solutions to that wound. But I certainly do have a lot of contempt for pastors who pitch that false gospel. And yeah, the Word says a lot about men and women who choose to lead in unrighteous directions when it comes to the Word, but it is I do loathe that idea. People don't understand. It is not it. This is biblical. It's in the Bible. You probably know what. You've probably heard it before the audience. You know, the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And we see make plays on that cliche all the time. But when you live that, you suddenly realize, like, how incredible this gift is actually a gift to realize that you can do nothing to be perfect or holy on your own. That's a gift. That's not a bad thing. Once you realize that. It's like I'm turning fifty in July, camp and you and you're getting older as well. I mean, not to point it out, I'm sure, but you know because you have k as soon as you have kids like time and just but you know, you know what I mean. The older you get, you realize how much you don't know, right. That is sort of the the the peak of wisdom is really no knowing how little wisdom you actually have. And it's that same release with the idea, with coming to the idea that you're actually not enough, You're actually not perfect the way you are, you actually are unholy. And nothing you do on your own so you get your perfect grades. You have the perfect husband, you have the perfect house. You want to be that trophy wife. Nothing you do will get you to the Promised Land. On your own, you will end up with a gorgeous house with no food in the cupboard. But here is God saying, I just I don't know, I'm reiterating what you're saying. I don't know. I guess we're just preaching now. But but I guess that's me. That's the glory of the Gospel. And it grieves me when progressive pastors, especially take that and make it into something ugly. And it's the place to start. It's absolutely necessary to start there. But it's the most beautiful place to be. And that's why Christianity is counter cultural and always has been, because it tells people that when you are the lowest, that is when you are the strong. And that's not right what our Darwinistic society tells us. No, no, I've got a thousand things to say. You're exactly right. I completely agree. But scriptures say that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. And you're listening to this and you're Christian and you haven't spent some time like really thinking about what the heck that means. I recommend that you do because what does that mean? And I don't think I'll answer it for you now. If you ever want, like listen, look me up, I'll tell you what I think my answer is. But like the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, Scripture doesn't say the end of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. But the idea is, like, if you're going to take if you want to live life well and be a wise person, you can't even get on that road unless you fear God. And we have this big problem because people will say something like, well, fear doesn't really mean fear. Fear means like to really revere God something like that, and it's like, yeah, it doesn't, though, it means to be scared of, like terrified of. So if the thought of God doesn't terrify you, you haven't begun on the path to wisdom. And what is what is that whole thing about? But I think the end, I'll let the cat out of the bag a little bit. But that is if you haven't considered who God is and who you are in relation to him. Let me say this positively, when you imagine who God is and when you imagine who you are, that should be a frightful experience if we were if we're honest about what I'm like, and we understand what God is like, that's frightful. But then at the as youre as you take some steps on the road to wisdom, all of that stuff that makes God terrifying, he's taken care of. He's handled, like all that judgment and all of that smallness and all of the distance you feel from God. Like, he's handled all of that judgment and wrath that went to someone else. You don't have to worry you're not on the hook closeness and distance. He offers to come and live inside your life, like he's going to come and live with you, so he's not far away, he's right next to you. Promises to make you a part of his family, like his whole the whole thing was always about us being a family to one another with God Almighty like he's handled He's handled all of those things. And so if if your idea is when you see God as just wrathful, of course that's a terrifying thing. And when you start answering it humanly and you don't tell the whole story of who God is and what He's done, then it would turn it would turn you off and turn you away. God's like one of these pagan deities were really What you hope is that they don't notice you, because otherwise they're gonna like mess with you. But if you can make them happy enough, if you can give them enough stuff, then maybe they'll give you safe safe passion it. Maybe they'll give you safe passage you know, as you as you travel somewhere, they'll they'll help you out with that. And that's not who God. That's not who God is at all. That's not what his character is like at all. And I'll say, uh, I'll say this thing too. The scriptures only warn about wolves and sheep's clothing. They don't they don't warn about wolves and wolves clothing. And that's what we have in these in these churches. Like, the terrifying thing is these people who are standing in front of congregations who want to know what God is like and what God wants from them, and have you have agents of evil standing in front of them and lying about who God is and what God wants from them. That's a terrifying thing. But I think our congregations need to take the responsibility. Like scripture talks about how congregations will recruit for themselves pectures whoill start tickling their ears. Okay, okay, congreg you have you have a responsibility to be like good Bereans and make sure that your path hasn't hasn't wandered off the plot. But also be on the lookout for wolves in sheep's clothing. And of course they're not like, of course they're going to look like one and say all the right things we talked about. I talked about anyways, how these progressives, so called pastors have hollowed out the entire Christian message and just kept the They've kept the vocabulary, and they've kept the shell. So outwardly it looks like the right thing. That is my hamhanded way of talking about a wolf who's wearing a sheep coat. That's like, yeah, I know they were like one of us. But what they're telling you is anti gospel and false, and it's turning you away from the Gospel and teaching you untrue things about God and then also untrue ways about how we ought to be social with each other. Because their emphasis also is top down. You talked about the gender ideology that has become, so that's been just gotten everywhere. It's everywhere over the last few years, and it's my experience that most people don't believe it, but they have been pressured from pressure from the top to conform and either fake it till they make it or pretend to believe it so as not to have their own their own lives and world being upset. So we know that it's a we know it's a winning strategy in a certain sense if you want a certain kind of conformity. But I suspect that there is going to continue to be stronger and stronger and more more incendiary reaction against against that. And also that's just not how that's not how the gospel, that's not how God wanted his people to be, and that's not how like read the if you read the first little bit of the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus is describing what his kingdom is like, and it's described it's characterized by things like meekness and humility and servanthood and holiness and thirsting after righteousness and being poor in spirit, relying on God as the opposite of demanding other people conform to our way of living and believing. And I as tragic as it is that we have, I think so many people who have been coerced into conforming two bad ideas to false ideas that they don't really believe. It would be even more tragic if the subject was not gender ideology, but was Christianity in the Bible. So all of that is to say, I think that we'd be wise to really consider our impulse about like top down, put people under the right rules, put people under the right rulers, get them to do the right things, because then we'll have the right results, right there'll be fewer needles on the sidewalk in San Francisco and whatever, Like, Okay, those things, those things are good. But forcing people to comply with ideas that they object to, I don't think is first I think it's bad. But secondly, you're not changing hearts. You don't change people's hearts that way. You might change the behavior, but himself kind of goes listen, it's not about the behavior. Yeah, the behavior is bad, but killing somebody, like the killing the guy is bad, but you know the real problem is you have anger in your heart and like, yeah, cheating on your wife is bad. You know the real problem is is that you look lustfully at other people. Like the problem is inside your heart and you're not going to fix it from the outside in. Or it starts is inside your own heart, dealing with that thing that Soljionnitsen talked about, like there's this goodness and evil divide and how do I deal with that? And then practicing living spiritual discipline in your own life and in all of your family, Like it starts with learning how to apologize to your kids when you're a jerk to them, and taking like if someone at your church is a vegan and they think it's weird to eat meat, Like, don't make them feel weird about that, and be a vegan when you're with them, you know, and being somebody who's willing to be last and willing to serve, and you can't you can't out humble God. And I just think He will always always reward that. And yeah, sorry, I'm preaching again, But it starts, It starts in. It starts with me. I imagined we would it's after midnight here, the sun's just coming up. This time of year in nor would we get very little daylight. And we're just getting a sunrise now at nine am. Oh wow. Cam's sitting there with his coffee and I'm sitting here in my pajamas. But I think this is a good place to wrap it up. And maybe this is why God wanted me to do this show. I do take it to church on this show, but this isn't a Christian show. But I called my producer the other day and I said, I don't know why, Darvo, but this is on my heart. I can't let it go. I think what's happening, Cameron is we are in the midst of calling in the Christian Church, and it's very painful, particularly in the West. I can't really speak to well, I know a little bit about what's going on in other continents, and you know, Africa and South America is exploding, but in what we consider have considered the seat of Christianity, and really these Western nations that really are responsible for much of the evangelizing in the world. Now we are we are watching the decline of our superpower. We are watching the decline of our faith. And I'm watching that happen in churches and it does hurt me, it greeves me. But I also see God preparing us for something which means we're all gonna need to know what we know. You know, We're all going to need to know what we believe. And so maybe that's it. I'm not quite sure, to be honest, Cam, I'm just I'm just doing work here. But I I am fascinated. And I think Europe is such a great especially Scandinavia is such a great example of where we are headed as a country. If and I don't, it doesn't to me, it doesn't matter where this goes. We have a duty. But if Christians don't at least speak up for gospel truths and what we know to be right, to value our First Amendment rights as we have them for now, and to be bold about what we know to be true, because what we have known to be true has built a great civilization. And when you hollow it out, you get lonely depressed people who are walking on broken legs without any crutches, telling you they don't need crutches them. By the way, anybody who wants to, you know, use that metaphor. I always say, yeah, I mean when you're when you can't walk, But what's so so bad about a crutch? I mean, crutches are quite helpful, But camp as we I'm going to ask you two questions here to wrap us up and then try to ask you to be as the sync as possible. With this first one, I'll do my best. I actually actually have three questions, so I'll ask my first question. I have a lot of Jewish listeners, and they're very faithful listeners, and they're very curious people. So even though they might not be sort of comprehending this conversation spiritually speaking, or even care much for it, a lot of questions I get from my Jewish listeners are often like, I love Christians, I love Christianity, and I believe that Christianity has been a positive influence on Western culture. And you're our brothers and sisters, But you guys evangelize and we find that hugely disrespectful. You know, we don't like it. We don't understand it. It's one of the things that really put us off about Christians. I know, and this is true for a lot of non Christians. They don't understand the call to evangelize. So, as someone who is literally a missionary, why do Christians evangelize? Is it rude? Now? I mean, yeah, I guess it was rude in the same sense that if you had the antidote for death, that you would go around everybody so that they could live. I mean, that's that's not even a metaphor, that's that's what it is. So the succinct way of putting that is the Christians have the antidote for death and really care that the people around us don't die for our Jewish listener would say, there for your Jewish listeners. I guess I don't know that I have any. Like I have a wife and three daughters, I don't have listeners. Anywhere. Four that there is listeners right there, Well, yeah, is that? And is that Christians is compared to Jewish people, we let we don't have the thing where where our faith we're not a people, and our our faith and our identity are are much more separate. Whereas when God chose, When God chose his people and then grew his people, they were a people. And there was a promise made to Abraham that that blessing of being God's people was going to extend to the whole world at some point, that the whole earth was going to be blessed through Abraham's lineage. And as Christians, we believe that that happened in the person of Jesus. And what he did was he now opened the gates for everyone to become a part of the people of God. And the metaphor that's used by the Jewish writers of the New Testament is that of adoption by way of Jesus. God is adopting the whole world into his chosen and elect people. And so if there's something that doesn't that doesn't quite click, like the way you described how some of your Jewish listeners talk to you like, I won't repeat it, but that whole thing, and what's up with you Christians evangelizing. It's like, Yes, the way that I see it and what I believe is true, is that you were a people of God for no reason other than He chose you and had special relationship with you. But his promise to the very first, to his very first chosen person and was that someday God was going to adopt and welcome everyone into his family, and that's what he did with Jesus. And so then my not so metaphor for that was, that's the antidote for death, is you'd have to be in God's family and live in God's house. And the way that that happens is by accepting the forgiveness that comes through Jesus, which I believe that the entire what Christians would call the Old Testament, but all the Hebrew scriptures I think are pointing to that thing and that event where the whole world gets blessed and we have a fuller picture and understanding of what God was doing with his people and through his people throughout history. Okay, great, so yeah, I thanks for saying that. I know I have a lot of Jewish friends who who have questions, so you know, to my Jewish listeners, just know, well, there are rude Christians out there, obviously in one of those yes times, and there are pushy Christians of persure. But just know that, you know how Christians we call the New or as we call it the New Testament or the Hebrew Bible or the Greek Bible, we say it's good news. That's not just a cliche. It's like, we think it's good news. So we think we're telling you good news. We're not there to make you feel bad. We just really are like, hey, this is good news, so you know, go easy on us. We're not We're not trying to be rude or mean. We're literally trying to share good news. All right. Second question, what is one of the best pieces of advice you've ever gotten. It doesn't have to be the best piece of advice. I know that's putting you on the spot, but it's a really good piece of advice that you sort of pull out now. And again, Yeah, there's so much, but I think let me think for just for just two seconds. Sure, go ahead, you can say anything. I'll tell people, well, my best piece of advice, which they've already heard about. Yes, you did that. Yeah, you give them, you give them that, and I'll think for a second. My best piece of advice was always be where you're supposed to be. Had an ex boyfriend who told me not and you know, he said he realized that when he gave his brother a ride, knew we shouldn't have given his brother a ride to the hood, ended up in the middle of a drive by shooting, cowering on the playground, going I'm not supposed to be here. I'm not supposed to be here. He knew he had no business taking his drug dealing brother to the projects and did it anyway. And I've always taken that advice, whether it is physical location, relationships, a job, you know, anything, it's always be where you're supposed to be. And I think most people have a sense of where they're supposed to be. Do you think of it yet? I like that. Yeah, I'll just give you one. I've got a thousand that I don't follow very well. But my dad is a font of wisdom, and he said something like, it's not the meaning of life, but if we want to live life, well, that close to the foundation of that is being able to tell yourself yes and no. Interesting which I guess to put flesh on those bones. It means to be able to tell you to be able to do the things that you are supposed to do and to not do the things you're not supposed to do. So in being able to maybe tell tell yourself and obey yourself, to be able to tell yourself yes and tell yourself no. I that sounds great. Well I couldn't have put it better myself, thanks to Camp's dad. And third question, if people were interested in supporting what you guys are doing in Norway, either through your church or if you have a particular organization, could they donate. Is there a place they could go to help you guys out or learn more about your ministry. Yeah, there's kind of two answers to that. So Whitney and I we are employees of the International Mission Board. So go to IMB dot org and if you'd like to support us, there's information about how to do that. You can also look me up, look me up online, find me on Facebook, YouTube, you can I imagine somewhere you're going to see my weird name. I'm the only person with this name in the whole world. So if if you google me, you'll get me, I think so wow, So it was crazy. We gave our girls very Norwegian names and they are people who share their names, but not mine anyways. So go to IMB dot org if you'd like to support that IMB is doing out here. There's ways to give money that comes straight to the actual ministry that we're doing on the ground in Oslo. And you can give to the organization or you could give directly to what we're doing here. And then more broadly speaking, I'll just see them, I'll say, all so you can look me up, find me on find me on Facebook, and yeah, I'll lead that the Facebook Instagram. You can email me. My email addresses camcam at word first dot us. And we need we need support. The ministry overall needs support, especially in terms of encouragement and prayer for missionaries. For your interested in supporting missionaries, like money is important, but phone calls and postcards and coming to see what we're doing and encouraging us is you can't imagine how valuable that is to missionary. So if your church is supporting missionaries, send them a card, send them an email, give them a call. I it sounds, I know, it sounds sort of cliche, like that's the thing you ask for instead of asking for money. No like no no no no, no no no. Your missionaries need your encouragement and support and connection with the church because you know it's lonely out here. So that's I've talked too long, I said, I sing. Well, definitely check back in with you, Cameron. I want to thank you so much for taking out your morning to talk to this really random conversation on this random podcast. I know it's strange, but I just feel like God is moving and I have this platform. I don't know, I don't know what else to say. I just felt like I had to do it, so I but I've really this has been a fascinating conversation. And I mean I can talk about Jesus all day, but unfortunately my time here, so I have to go to the head. Oh girl, anytime next time. Next time, I'll do jammies and you can do coffee. Okay, that sounds good and I definitely though it's on my bucket list, come out to Oslo and hang out with you guys. And I mean, Norway's just a beautiful country. It's been on my list for a while. It's stunning. Come hang out. We would love that. Yes, you're enthusiastically invited. Come hang out. We'll have a good time. We'll go swimming in the frozen fjord. It's fantastic. Okay, I'm gonna freak everything because I don't know how to how to greet a person without asking how are you? So I'm gonna be weird. I'll teach you. It's okay. And they know as Americans, they know we're weird. They give us a they give us some slack for that, give us like some grace. Okay, fair enough, Well, Cam, thank you so much. Don't close out after this before we win. Let this render a little bit. But I want to thank Cam for joining us. Don't forget. I'll conclude his information in the show notes so you can hit him up, hit up his ministry if anything he said moved you, if if, if you're a Christian, will want to support this, hit him up and you heard what he said. Postcards from prayers, I mean those are free. If you want to give me your money, go ahead. You can look me up. I'm at here real Care Davis on Twitter, or you can sign up for my substack just here Davis dot substack dot com. But Cam's not. I mean, I'm sure they. Of course we would appreciate your financial blessings, but listen to what he's saying. A postcard, an email, a prayer means so much and y'all have time for that, So if you can spare that, please do. And what else do I want to tell everybody? I don't. I don't don't have anything else to say. If you want to write in and you want to reach out to Cam even or if you have comments about this show, and all comments are welcome of course, as always, go to j L. T Y at ProtonMail dot com j L. T Y at ProtonMail dot com and let me know what your thoughts are. And until we meet again every once in a while, remember just stop and listen to yourself. Opbreads as that we won't with say then we won't to say oh we gott it? Does no one get dig that? Owen this gonna be okay? Opraads that we won't with pay and then we won't with say oh we got it? Does no one get dig that? Owen? With it gonna be okay? This has been a presentation of the FCB podcast network, where Real Talk Lives visitors online and Cbpodcasts dot com
