Ep. 306 - Mind Over Matter? With Author Mark Gober

This is the FCB Podcast Network. A bread masoda day that we won't to say, and then we won't to say, oh we got it does? No one can take that oway. This don't be okay? A preassday that we won't to say, and then we won't to say, oh we got it does? No one can take that oway, don't say this don't be okay. Well, hello, everybody, welcome back to another episode of Just Listen to Yourself Here at Davis. This is the podcast where we take hot topics, hot button issues, and we discuss the talking points on those issues, and we draw those talking points all the way out to their logical conclusion. Today is a j LT white plus, so that means it's not just me talking. I get to invite a guest to discuss some interesting idea is And I'm really excited and maybe a little bit nervous for the JLTY audience because this guest today is marking a departure from our typical political barrel, though we do do a lot of cultural stuff. But as you guys know, I've been having a bit of an awakening and I've been thinking a lot more about other things going on around us. I had the pleasure of interview viewing this gentleman when I was filling in for Stacy Washington over on the Patriot on Sirius and immediately said, I've got to get you on my show. So, without further ado, please welcome Mark Gober. He is the author of the upside Down Series. It's a seven book series spanning the topics of consciousness, politics, economics, UFOs, medicine, cosmology, and more. His first book, An End to Upside Down Thinking, which I am reading right now, when an IPY Award for the Best Science Book of the Year. And let's see. He's also the host of the eight episode podcast which I just started as well, Where Is My Mind, released in twenty nineteen, which explores the scientific evidence for telepathy, afterlife and more. And here's some of his credentials lest you think he's just some kook. He was a partner at Sherpa Technology Group in Silicon Valley, and he's worked as an investment banking analyst with UBS in New York. And he is also a Princeton graduate. Mark Gosh, that was a mouthful. Welcome to the show. Happy New Year, Happy New Year, Kia, Thank you so much for having me. I am so thrilled to have you. I went and got the first book in your series, An End to Upside Down Thinking, But you just released a new book. Before we get into talking about this, what's the latest in this upside down series? The latest is called An End to the Upside Down Cosmos, and it looks at elements of cosmology that we've been taught and probably just believed because the scientists said they were true, and I challenge them. But I will say the book you're reading an Endo Upside Down Thinking, those themes flow into every other book, including the cosmology book. Yeah, well, let's get into it. I'm just actually going to read the back of this to get started. Because consciousness creates all material reality, biological processes do not create consciousness. This conceptual breakthrough turns traditional scientific thinking upside down. Mark explores a compelling scientific evidence from a diverse set of disciplines, ranging from psychic phenomena to near death experiences. And in the introduction of this Bookmark, you talk about how modern Western society is rooted in materialism. But you sort of had a little awakening. You had a sort of a come to Jesus moment, as it were, as a scientist, as an investment banker, as somebody who is really admired in the practical applications in society. Tell us a little bit about your journey. Yeah, I had a very dramatic shift in my thinking and then my life. I, like you said, had a very traditional background, went to Princeton, like many of my classmates, went into investment banking. That's just sort of what you did. This was in two thousand and eight when I graduated, and that happened to be the time of the Great Financial Crisis, so I was in the heart of all that in New York. It was a very tough time to be there, and otherwise already difficult profession. Investment banking is tough and that you're working around the clock, often working weekends with no days off, and I decided I did not want to do that full time for a long term career, So in twenty ten, I left and then joined a firm based in Silicon Valley, where I ended up spending ten years and became a partner where I was advising companies on their inventions, their patented technologies and tying it to their business strategy. So that's where I was coming from. We could probably have long podcasts just on my business life. But then in twenty sixteen, while I was still working in Silicon Valley, I had a major shift in my thinking. And at the time I would have called myself an atheist or agnostic, where I would have said, there's no real meaning to life. We can try to create our own meaning, but we're just making it up in our own minds, and we live in a universe that's fundamentally random and meaningless. There's no afterlife, the so called paranormal, that's just the stuff of science fiction, and we just have to accept our fate. That's where I was, and at the time in my life, I felt like I was running on a treadmill, trying to just accomplish the next thing in front of me, but not really advancing in it psychologically. And after a while it becomes difficult to persist like that. But interestingly, Kire, I wasn't looking for something new. I just said, Okay, I live in this materialist worldview. There's no meaning and I have to accept it. But I did started listening to I started to listen to podcasts at that time because in twenty sixteen they were becoming more and more popular. And I remember a friend of mine sent me a podcast of a venture capitalist talking on Tim Ferriss's show, and I said, oh, this is just kind of an interesting thing to do outside the office. I had a long commute, so I would listen to podcasts in the car, and long story short, I heard some evidence for basically psychic abilities and the survival of our consciousness after we die, things that were completely contrary to my worldview. And then I started to look into books and scientific papers and realize, wow, actually my alma mater, Princeton was studying this. The US government has studied this, the Institute of Noedic Sciences, which has been around for fifty years. I'm now board member. They've been studying this and publishing peer reviewed papers. And I was totally disoriented because I didn't know what to think of life. I didn't have really anyone to talk to. But then fast forward a year later, I said, this is really important stuff. I want to share it with others, and hopefully, because more mate I have a mainstream background, I might be able to reach new audiences. So I wrote that first book. A few years later, decided to leave my job, and now I've written a series of seven books looking at many other paradigms, not just this paradigm about consciousness. Year book, this book, that, this first book that I'm reading, and then to upside down Thinking, which is, like you said, it's a good place to start because it's going to lead I'm not to the other books. By the way, my husband picked up this book. He's like, let me see what Kiraa is reading. My husband, who's like into football and food, like, he's not into this stuff. Let me see what Kia is reading. I'll try to read this, he said. He read one page. He was like, I can't. I don't understand this. But it's definitely a lot of information. But some of the chapters include things like laying the foundation quantum relativistic chaos proven an accepted science that defies common sense. You've got chapters on remote viewing, telepathy, precognition, photokinesis. Tell me a little bit about when we talk on Stacy's show. Something you said really triggered me. You said, and I want everyone to know. Everyone who's a regular listener of the show knows I'm a woman of faith. So in some aspect, none of this is surprising to me, but in the material sort of like this plane we live on is these are new conversations for us, and I think I'm understanding more about creation as I explore this, So I just want to lay that foundation. But one of the things you said to me, Mark was there is an idea of consciousness of the brain rather not necessarily being an organ, but a receptor, a receptor to energy, things, power, whatever you want to call it. Information. The universe had, whatever you want to call it. And I'll ask you what you call it? A receptor And perhaps we've been thinking about the brain all wrong. Can you expand on that? Sure? This is really core to the argument of the book, core to my shift in thinking. And I didn't actually start with this question of the brain and consciousness because I was hearing just various anecdotes when I first started to read books, but I realized they all tied back to this question of what is the brain really doing? And what we are taught in mainstream science is that our brain is what produces our sense of experiencing life. It's a very basic belief that many of us probably haven't even thought to question it because we. Know, I feel like that's what it is. I think that's what it. Is, because we know that our brain has all kinds of chemical and electrical reactions, and that if you damage one part of the brain, like say, let's say the part of the brain responsible for your vision, then your vision will change. And we can see these correlations everywhere. And that's why neuroscience is such an important field, because it's like, affect this part of the brain, now your conscious experience is going to change. You affect this part of the brain, maybe you're gonna have memory loss over and over again. The issue, however, just from a logical perspective, is that we can't say that just because two things are related to each other. Just because two things are correlated doesn't mean that one thing causes the other thing to happen. So let me give it an example. This comes from a philosopher, Bernardo castrap He says, imagine you have a fire and there are firefighters there. Do you conclude that the firefighters are causing the fire or are the firefighters doing something else? So, just because the firefighters are there, it doesn't mean that the firefighters are causing the fire. Could be that the firefighters are putting out the fire. For example, So if we apply that just basic logic to the brain, and we know the brain is related to consciousness but not necessarily creating it, is there another way to explain our observations of the brain and our observations of consciousness. And this is where you're. Heading, is that maybe the brain is actually a receiver of consciousness or it's filtering something that's way beyond our body. Some in certain traditions might call it a soul, for example, and our brain is actually filtering, processing, receiving, and then we're having a very specific type of experience through the brain and through the body. It's very different than saying the brain is ultimately the sole thing that's creating our experience. It might be that it's actually just narrowing, filtering, receiving our experience, almost like in the same way that a television set. When you're watching a show on TV and you damage the antenna, you take a hammer and smash the antenna on your television set. The TV show that you were watching appears scratchy on the screen, but it's not because the signal was damaged. The signal's fine. It's all that's happened is that the apparatus that was receiving the signal got damaged. So that's a we have to rethink what it means to be a human being. And I agree with you here this leads to spiritual and religious beliefs very easily. Yeah, I that it's mind blowing, and of course, yes, I'm thinking about all of my biblical connections now. I really do feel this confirms a lot of scriptural stuff. But we don't necessarily need to go to church right now. But the idea of the the mind as a receptor mark if you if if we look at even I think we've ignored a lot of traditions in modern society, right We've ignored it us sort of ancient silliness or woo woo woo stuff, you know. But there's something to be said, and this is biblical as well. The Bible tells us to do this as well. But certainly you know Yogi's and the Granola group they do this. There's something to be said about meditation, about or when the kids tell you to go out and touch grass, you know, but there is something to be said about your bare feet touching you know, the earth and how. And then I've been reading a lot lately of course, with Elon Musk about Tesla and the idea of a firmament or some kind of energy that we can pull from the atmosphere. And if we have that idea, then why can't we pull consciousness from the atmosphere or why if there's energy floating around that we ostensibly could access if we had the technology, then why doesn't that same concept apply to the brain. Help me sort that out, Mark, I don't know what I'm asking it like, you're blowing my mind, So just working it out. You're asking a very logical question if you depart from the materialist view of consciousness, and the materialist view says the only reason that we experience is because of physical stuff inside our skull. That's a very different perspective than saying, wait, maybe our consciousness is actually beyond our body and there's something we're tapping into. So the first step is to say the worldview that we've all been taught materialism, that everything is just matter like billiard balls interacting with each other one after the other. And there was a big bang thirteen point eight billion years ago where these pieces of matter started interacting with each other. In a massive universe. And after billions of years, you end up with a human being that develops this brain and then consciousness pops out. That's really the worldview that we're talking that we're taught in school. But if we depart from that and say, hmm, maybe consciousness isn't coming out of the brain. Maybe consciousness our experience of life is something much more fun to mat to reality, then maybe, like you say, it's something that we could tap into. So the first step, and really why I'm writing and speaking about these topics, is to try to crack materialism because it's so deeply ingrained that many of these creative ideas we'd never even think about because they're basically outlawed by materialism. They're impossible. It feels uh here, let me put on my tinfoil hat, Hair Martin. It feels conspiratorial because in your book, as again I'm not finished yet, but in your book you you dig up all kinds of information on government programs. This is real programs. Our own government has and is, has been and is working on things like telekinesis, remote viewing. There are plenty, there's plenty of documentation that remote viewing, which is I'll let you explain what it is to our audience who might not know, but that remote viewing it is a real phenomenon. It has been observed and has been observed to be a success in some cases. And there's proof for precognitive abilities as well. So our own government has access to research and real hard facts that these are, that this is a real phenomenon, this is a real thing. And yet in our schools at Princeton, even as you study, you had to go back to Princeton to find out what they were really doing at Princeton. In our schools, they tell us it's all up here. It's all materialism, big bang, and then you were fish and then you're crawled out of the primordial sledge and boom you have a consciousness and now you know what is right and wrong. It feels like a conspiracy. What's the disconnect here? I think there are two ways to look at what's been going on. One is innocent ignorance, and that's like people just are very biased. They have a PhD. They spent their whole career with one worldview of materialism, and they don't want to challenge it, and they don't want to admit that they were wrong. And I do think there's an element of that, But where you're heading is where my books have started to veer more and more, which is that there's a concerted effort to keep from us our true identity. That's really what it comes down to. What is a human being? Is a human being just a body that dies and that's the end and emerged randomly. Or is the human being much more significant? Is the human being a spiritual entity that transcends the body? Is the human being much more powerful than we've been told? And you're reminding me of a quote that it's really has been stuck in my head. Mario Beauregard, who is. A neuroscientist studying spiritual phenomena. He said in an interview on the Skeptico podcast a few years ago that he was trying to study spiritual phenomena at a neurological institute in Canada and he was told by the head of the institute he wouldn't mention who it was. He said, it's a very prominent person. This person told him, as long as I'm alive, you will never study spiritual phenomena here. And his conclusion was, this is dark versus light. It is actual social engineering and I think there's something to that, because if you look in academia, people who try to study these phenomena, they're told, don't do this if you want to get tenure. I've gotten to know many of these scientists personally, and I interviewed them on my podcast called Where Is My Mind? And it's the same theme everywhere where a certain narrative is pushed and you have to follow the orders otherwise you're not going to fit into academia. We know this is true, not just in field of consciousness. This happens everywhere when whether it's political or economic. But now it's this, it's this what we're seeing elsewhere in the realm of consciousness in terms of trying to steer the narrative. Boy, you said, melfhil there. Okay, so let's all right. Do you watch Rogan? Do you watch Joe Rogan? I do want to loop. Back around something that became a bit of a controversy, but I think I think it's connected to this conversation, which is his believe in dragons, right, and people made a big deal out of it, Joe Rogan pleas and dragons. But if you drill down on what he was saying, you know in that podcast that he was he's a very curious guy. I think one of the things is he was like, well, we don't we haven't been told everything, we don't know everything. Why do we think we know everything? And why do we think that the people giving us the information are giving us all the information or the correct version of the information. And you, just in your singular quest to delve a little deeper, have uncovered that it's not just that people don't want to study this stuff, it's that they have studied it and they don't want us to know what it says. There is a concerted effort to separate humanity from the magic of the human soul. I believe because I think there is a lot of power there. And I think what you're suggesting to and your research and as you moved through this whole series seven books so far is the side Down. By the way we're talking about an and to upside Down Thinking and the Upside Down series with Mark Bober, I think one thing you suggest is that if we could really flip our thinking about brain and consciousness, we could access a type of power that could be really helpful and healing to humanity. I completely agree, and I can say that's been the case of my own life and my second book, An End to Upside Down Living, I talk about the spiritual awakening journey, and there are many commonalities among those who decide to take on this different worldview. It's almost like reality actually shifts once you learn about this information. And I'll be curious to hear if members of your audience have that experience, if this is new to them, because I know what happened to me. It was like one domino hit and then I could see years later, Wow, I could trace it back to hearing some of those podcasts where it just opened my mind to things that I didn't even consider. And this actually makes sense, Kira. If consciousness is a fundamental aspect of reality, then that would mean reality is inherently malleable, that when you shift your consciousness, reality can shift. And I talk about this in the chapter on psychokinesis, which is mind matter interaction. That's another one where I've gotten to know the scientists, for example, at the Institute of Noetic Sciences where I serve on the board, I know people who are actually doing these studies and there's a real effect. It's often a small effect, but highly statistically significant, meaning that people are able to shift reality or shift the behavior of machines by shifting their mindset. And all of this points back to where you were directing us earlier, the idea that we are way more powerful and significant than we've been taught. And if we realize the power of our mind and our beliefs and our thoughts, what could that do for our lives? I think we could all live healthier and more prosperous and joyful lives. Yeah. I know for me one of the things that was as a woman of faith, what made me think about this differently because like a lot of Christians, story, faith and this sort of stuff, the woo woo stuff separate, even though the Bible's super woo woo, super weird. But we managed Again. I guess this goes back to what we've been doing. We've tamped down the idea of there's more to humanity. But one of the things I was listening to a podcast on alien UFO phenomenon, which is another thing you address in your books, and there was a pastor who was discussing it and he said, look, I know Christians are really uncomfortable with these topics, and I think we could extend it to what you're writing about, even Mark. I know we're uncomfortable with these topics, but they're real. They're coming up. These are experiences that people are having and we have to have an answer for them. You know, the people are looking for answers, and do you want them to look to the liars for answers or the people who have something to gain by hiding the information, or do you want to be the person exploring these very real things. We're not exploring these, Mark, I want to talk to you about you talk about in your book. We can observe things like this in our everyday life. Try staring at somebody for a long period of time and see if they turn around. You know, have you ever felt like you've been stared at? You talk a little bit about that. There are little things that we sort of dismissed in our daily life but are actual markers of sort of the miraculous nature of these receptors. And to add to that, these are phenomena that have actually been studied using the scientific method. That blew my mind because I didn't know there were scientists who were testing do some people's sense when they're being stared at more than when they're not being stared at using statistics or for example, probably the best known study on telepathic effects, this has been studied for decades and the results are in the level of six sigma, meaning it's a billion to one odds that these effects are just by chance, meaning there's a real effect. And the basic design is like this. You have one person in a room. The person's just put into a relaxed state because some scientists believe the person's more receptive, but this is just someone in one room. You put another person in another room, and the person who's not in the relaxed state in the other room is shown an image by the experimenters, and the experimenter say, I want you to try to send what you're seeing with your mind to the other person in the other room you don't even know. And the person does this for a long time. This isn't even a person who claims to have any special telepathic abilities. And then the person who was in the relaxed state, who was supposed to supposedly receiving this information, is given four images by the experimenters, and the experimenters say one of these four was being sent to you mentally by the person in the other room which one was it? And if there were no effect at all, we would guess that the person who's guessing and having to pick one out of four would guess correctly about one out of four times. Because it which should be totally random, the person should guess correctly about twenty five percent of the time. But that's not what scientists find. They find that the person who's guessing will guess correctly between thirty and thirty two percent of the time, roughly, So this small differential of let's say, five to seven percent, beyond what chance would predict. It's massively significant from a statistical perspective, and it actually conforms with our everyday experience because most of us are not one hundred percent telepathic. We don't know everyone's thoughts all the time. But sometimes we think of a person we haven't thought of in years, and then they text us, and it's like, WHOA was that random? Or maybe I was picking something up? And what these studies are suggesting is that maybe we do pick something up sometimes, And just that statistical result alone, just one of these studies, it blows apart the mainstream paradigm of science, it's not allowed. It's called paranormal because normal is assumed to be materialism. And once we depart from materialism, all this stuff is possible. And I want to give one analogy to hopefully help your audience. If we use a doctor, Bernardo Castrop came up with us. He said all of reality could be likened to a stream of water, an infinite stream, where the water is like consciousness. Each of us is a whirlpool within the stream. So we have this sense of being individuals, but we're connected to something much bigger and much more intelligent. And if you imagine some of the water from one person's whirlpool getting into another person's whirlpool, it's like some of one person's consciousness getting into another person's field of consciousness. That would be a telepathic effect that would be completely predicted. Under this model of reality, where consciousness is much more fundamental, it wouldn't be paranormal at all. You'd actually expect this to be real. So the argument I make in this book and end Upside Down Thinking, and also the podcast series Where Is My Mind? If there's one thing that works in this kind of whirlpool metaphor just one, then materialism can't explain it because materialism says consciousness is stuck in stye your skull, it's stuck in space and time, in the here and now. Whereas if we've got a whirlpools within a stream that's infinite beyond space and time, all the sudden and these other things are possible even the afterlife. Where one whirlpool stops being a whirlpool, the water goes back into the stream and simply into a different form. It doesn't leave the stream. So all this quote unquote paranormal stuff, psychic abilities, the afterlife, they become not only possible but predicted if we shift our worldview. It doesn't really work in the materialism worldview, Like we've just been asked to believe a lot of stuff without questioning. I mean, if you even think, like, oh, well, energy never dissipates, then what do we think happens to the energy of the mind, the energy of the brain when we when we expire. But we've just been asked to sort of ignore that contradiction. And in Christianity we're also asked to ignore a lot of things. I wouldn't call them contradictions because I do not believe the Bible is contradictory. But we are asked to ignore a lot of weird things because you know it's it doesn't fit. But once you start thinking, and you say this in the beginning of this book, you say, just open your mind. Just go into this book thinking with the idea I'm going to just relax and sort of let go of my preconceived notions for just a few moments. And on this show we recognize that that's not easy to do. We don't assume people can do that. It takes discipline. So I don't want to That's not for nothing. But one of the things that you I want to talk about this. Let's talk about this, okay, because Mark, if we're talking about this stream of consciousness and gosh, I all of a sudden, why are some things starting to come up? I'm starting to think of a friend she texts me, or you see thing topics come up in the culture. Right. Sometimes I might call it sort of like the collective unconsciousness. People call it that, But sometimes it feels like, wow, why is this thing popping up? So I'll tell you what's been on my mind and what sort of was a red flag to me when I opened your book to read some more today stargate stargate. Yes, dude, I was like, this is kind of crazy, because as I and I'll set if you'll give me a few minutes, I'll set you up for this and I want you to go all right. So I have been listening to some podcasts talking about the idea of AI as a portal to some other reality and a stargate, and stargate is a term we use for AI portals. There's a movie and a show called Stargate. But if you and I know, a lot of people were like to hear Trump announced this stargate project, this AI stargate project. A lot of people were like, cool, Stargate the James Spader movie. I love that movie. You need to go back and watch the movie. If it is a good movie, by the way, you need to go back and watch it. It has very interesting themes in it that I think Christian should pay attention to the fact that that Stargate movie is really an exploration of portals across time or two other dimensions. We're now talking about developing a stargate to do that very thing. And you and your book on page sixty four mentioned the Stanford Research Institute SRII the Stargate project from nineteen seventy two to nineteen ninety five. What's the Stargate project? Does it connect to these themes at all? That was my first thought here when I heard the news it was just yesterday about this project Stargate, because I spent so much time looking at Stargate back from the seventies, though in a different context. And to give your audience some background, the stargate we're talking about with regard to consciousness done at the Stanford Research Institute. This was the US government's admitted program using remote viewing. Remote viewing is basically psychic spying, using the human mind to perceive things that are far away in space and or time. And this phenomenon was actually confirmed by former US President Jimmy Carter. There was a downed Russian bomber lost in an African jungle. The radar systems and the satellites couldn't find it, so they used remote viewers. They used psychic spies to actually find this location. And there's actually declassified documents which I include in the book. They say explicitly remote viewing is a real phenomenon. Implications are revolutionary. That's a direct quote from declassified documents. Actually, in my podcast series Where Is My Mind? Episode four, I interviewed Russell Targ, who was one of the leaders of this program. He's a laser physicist back in the seventies, and it's interesting when I talked to Russell Tag or other people who have been involved in the program, to them, there's no question about whether or not this is real because they saw remote viewers do things. They would lock someone in a shielded room and have them see things with their mind that were outside of the shielded room, all sorts of experiments and they got results. And about twenty five million dollars were invested into this program, and they came from all the intelligence agencies. Russell Targ listed them out for me when we spoke, including NASA, which is interesting because I wrote my book on cosmology, and I'm like, why is NASA interested in the mind? But that's a separate topic. The point is, well, it's all related, isn't it, Because it's all government involvement and things that we didn't know about. And my understanding is that one of the reasons these documents were declassified was Russell Targ's son happens to be an attorney and knew how to work the system to be able to get certain things declassified. So it makes one wonder what else is being done that we're not aware of. Where the mind is acknowledged within certain segments of the government to have major powers that we're not taught about, and yet it's hidden. So I do wonder tying it back to more current events, is there something about the previous Stargate project, which is about using the mind to enter maybe different levels of reality. Is there something with AI that's that's trying to get us there too, to these other levels of reality? And is that a good thing? Or are there dangers? Because and I think I think many spiritual and religious traditions do a good job with this that yes, these phenomena are real, at least that's where I am now. They've been scientifically established. But does that mean they're always good things to play with? Or are there dangers? And I think there's a lot of dark and light that can come with messing with reality, and so I always wonder with AI and new technologies, I think they can be very good in certain ways, but I also wonder about the dark side too. I think that's a legitimate I think that's legitimate. And I think one of the other things that this deliberate separation of ourselves from our real humanity has done is it has also separated us from the idea of good and evil, some dark and light, some things that are bad and some things that are good, and so we it makes it harder, I guess, to identify those things when we see them. I will point everyone if you want to know if you think what we're talking about sounds weird. All of this stuff is always reflected to us in culture, in entertainment sort of soft. It's a soft cell, I believe, purposefully or otherwise. Some things are as we talked about, are just out there in the ether and you sort of, you know, filter it through your but but you know, look at stranger things or the mist. But the idea of creating these doors a portal sounds weird? But is it weird? Mark? Because you and I are talking through a portal right now, right right. I gave you the link, you clicked it, and it opened a door, and it opened a door for you and me to talk. What if it opened a door for you and something else to talk? You know? What I mean, why do we think we're the only door in the universe. Well, my fourth book in the series is called an End to Upside Down Contact, and it chronicles the evidence of contact human contact with non human intelligences not just in the modern era, but also throughout history. And this gets you quickly into religious lore because many of the stories from religions all over the world, if you translated them into modern language, we're all talking about the same thing. And interestingly, one of the key themes in the book was dark versus Light, the idea that we seem to be in a spiritual war, because when people have these encounters with non human intelligences, whether it's in the field of allegations of UFOs or in a near death experience, or with psychedelics or with people who claim their channeling spirits, there are many similarities. And some of the beings are definitely not benevolent and they don't have humanity's interests best interests at heart. They actually seem adversarial to humanity. And then there are other beings that seem very benevolent, and then others that seem like they're deceptive and their tricksters. So this is like you're saying, we've seemed to depart from this idea that there is dark in light and good and evil and that's just sort of something from fiction, Whereas to me, now that is something that's fundamental to our reality, and we have to accept not only the fact that there is immense good, an immense unconditional love that people experience that's beyond words, but there's also evil that's beyond words, and it's really unpleasant to think about. It was very unpleasant for me to research, and some of the things I've written about are horrific. But I think it's important for us to understand that that spectrum exists, because if we're ignorant to it, it's almost like there's a bear coming running after you to eat you, and we stick our head in the sand, And whether we stick our head in the sand or not, the bear is still going to be running at us. The bear is here. I think I think the bear is here, and we're I think we're seeing sort of a new era in human thinking about or at least Western thinking in this respect, because I think we can start we're starting to smell the stench of that bear coming up. I hope more people can recognize what it is and to the listeners. I know some of my listeners are going to get it because they've been listening to me talk and they've been listening to this journey. But one of the reasons that I want to talk more about this is to prepare people. I do believe things are going to get weird. I do, and there's going to be a lot of stuff that we will feel like we can't explain, and we can explain it. And one of the things that can be explained is the idea of alternate realities. We love it in the movies, but we don't like it, you know, when it's us and maybe it's this idea that we're not in control and we don't like that. You know. There's a whole element in this country Mark right now. And believe me, I'm into all the conspiracy theories. But one thing I don't do and I don't get into, is the idea that there is some world caupal that is just controlling every aspect of it, and they they're all just and it's just they have one plan and it's one group, and they're all just puppet masters and we're just helpless, you know. We just and I don't believe that. I believe, as you just pointed out, there's many different types of people. There's many different types of good, evil, benevolence, all of that, and many different types of people working. And that's why the word is important to us, because it tells us that we have a victory, We have a God has already won against these But I think people need to understand market that you explore in these books, particularly the one I'm reading right now, is the idea that there's a reason why it's important to keep humans from feeling powerful. You know, when we're powerful, what happens to the medical system if we can pretty much figure out how to heal our own bodies, what happens to you know, that the research system or the communications system, if we can figure out how to just send each other a thought rather than a text. You know, there's all kinds of implications for why why we've been trained to make this sound so ridiculous to our ears. Yeah, and to me, there's a spectrum. I don't I'm still trying to sort this out myself. Sure, where there are certainly financial interests that want to keep us not thinking we're powerful, the medical industry is one great example of that, because if we could take personal responsibility for our health, we wouldn't have to offload everything to the authorities. That's just one example out of many. But then from a spiritual perspective and this concept of a spiritual war, I do wonder whether or not there are actual forces out there that we don't see with our eyes that literally feed off of our fear and our discomfort. It is something I touch on in some of the books where there seem to be occult rituals that are very ancient, where the dark beings actually feed off of people's fear and suffering. And if that's a microcosm for reality, there might be even deeper reasons for suppressing human consciousness. And then on an even higher level than that, like what could it mean. Let's just say there are individual souls that are part of something bigger, whether you want to call it God or whatever, it is some higher intelligence that we're a part of. Could there be very high stakes in terms of suppressing human consciousness in each of our individual souls. If we're not doing the things here that we're meant to do spiritually, is that damaging in some way for us on a soul level? Is it damaging to humanity? Like all sorts of possibilities start to open up. And that's why I always have to ask myself, like, Mark, do you really want to write about this? Do you want to speak about this publicly? And where I've landed having done all this research, is that there are that this is really significant. It goes beyond does Mark really want to do this? Is Mark going to feel uncomfortable writing or speaking about this? That there's like a much bigger picture that we're all a part of, whether we realize it or not. And the stakes are high, and now seems to be like a critical time because so much is being revealed. To share the information and try to help other people wake up to this in the same way that many people have helped me wake up to this. Yeah, same, absolutely, I think, And I don't I really don't want to pull you into politics, but I'll just say this to the listeners. But I do think there's something to be said for what you just said about entities feeding off our fear. That's biblical. There are many examples in scripture that talk to us about how the enemy loves our fear. He loves to stoke fear and chaos, and if you look back at the last four years in America, it has felt very dark and chaotic. And the one thing people said on November fifth was you keep hearing it. The vibe shift, the vibe shift. The vibe shift's crazy. Just sort of looping back to how we started this podcast, Mark talking about how we have we can sense things. You know, this part of our humanity that isn't just the brain can sense things, and we sense when things shift. And regardless of what side of the political spectrum you're on, there was a vibe shift last month, and it was so much so that literally everyone I talked to, even atheists, say things feel different. I think that that speaks to a lot of what you've talked to us about today. I agree with you nothing. Yeah, when when there's an energetic shift, I don't even know what to call it, because maybe we don't have the words. But there has been a shift, a vibe shift. And you're reminding me of some studies that were initially came out of Princeton, but they're now part of the Global Consciousness Project, where machines are set up all over the world. They're called random number generators, meaning these are machines that randomly spit out zeros and ones, And when you look at a machine that's doing this randomly over a long period of time, you end up with fifty percent ones fifty percent zeros approximately, because it's random. The experimenters have started to look at what happens around the time of major global events like nine to eleven or Princess Diana's death and other events, and they look and they wonder, do the machines behave randomly around the time of these events, or is there a shift in the vibe so to speak, that actually affects the machines. And what they find is that the machines do behave non randomly. It's a small effect, but it's highly statistically significant, meaning it's not fifty to fifty one zeros, it's a little more one, a little less zero, at a level of statistical significance over and over again. And this is people around the world who most of them don't even know the machines exist, so they're not consciously saying I want the machine to behave differently. Yeah, it means that something when there's a collective shift in consciousness where people's focus is maybe emotionally activated in a certain direction, there is a shift in the physical reality around us. And I'll mention one more study before pausing here, And these were studies done at the Institute of Noetic Sciences where they have studied people who allege to channel non physical beings, which all the religions talk about, by the way, where there are non physical beings and they can speak through the vocal cords of a living human sounds crazy. Sometimes the person will go into a trance. So this is something the scientists say, we can study this, let's see if it's real or not. And one of the things they've studied is they put the random number generator machine in the room while the channeler seems to be channeling some other entity, and they find the machine behaves non randomly, meaning that some energy seems to be coming through the implications of this are massive. When we get to your question of like when there's a major shift that happens and people start to think differently or they're feeling differently, we can all feel that in a way, and maybe what you were describing in the vibe shift is something that the scientists are picking up with these random number gen raiders. It's all the same thing, just from different lenses. It's so interesting. It's not ones and zeros, folks, it's not just ones and zeros. Were trained to look at it as ones and zeros. But the bear, our geometry, our map, it's divine, it's sacred. It all means something we've just been so separated from it. I'm gonna have you back, Mark, because as I moved through this series, I think I'm going to be discovering things. But I know, I know, I want to talk to you about UFOs. I know this because we've talked about some things, folks, that are very biblical, even in respect to the power of the human spirit and soul. And Mark, you brought up a good point. We have stories, we call them myths. But a myth does not mean I'm true. That's the other thing that we've been led to believe that the word myth means untrue. It doesn't. And I think there's something to be said for taking things literally, I really do. And I think there's something to be said for the ideas that we see throughout different faith traditions that you know that have common threads. We all have our different things. I don't know your response to that. I absolutely agree with you. I think that even the notion of a myth sort of presupposes materialism because many of the things we read about in myths sound impossible. They sound like supernatural, and they are impossible if you assume that materialism is true, right, and that it's all random, and that consciousness comes from the brain and that's it. But if you expand the paradigm, the metaphysics into something different, all of a sudden, what we would have called mythical is actually very much possible. It might just be beyond what our mainstream science believes. It is something that I've explored, especially in the book on Contact with Non Human Intelligence, because I had to look at religious lore around the world and say, hmm, maybe what they're describing was real, and that's why the religions formed around these people, because something miraculous did happen and people have been trying to understand it. And there are similarities, like you say, from traditions around the world where they're seeing something very similarly. And it does bring us to whether you want to call it biblical or whatever, like really significant, major significance to everything that's happening in the world, and it seems like things are bubbling up now more than ever. I mean, we just have the entire world shut down that never had as far as I've seen in history, that's never happened. There are things happening. That have never occurred before, and it makes it to me seem very significant. Yeah, before I let you go, I want your thoughts concerned. And what's happening over there on it with cern certains the particle accelerator. Everybody that's in Switzerland is it Switzerland, But they're building they're building replicas around the world. There's one in China that's going to be like a whole country long. There's what I mean, it's crazy they call them particle accelerators. They're just looking into the origins of atoms, and it's a lot more than that. I'm really not sure what's going on. But I have questions just like you do. And I even have questions about the notion of a physical particle, whether there is anything physical, if it's all actually energetic. And I get it to this in my book on cosmology. Doctor Stephen A. Young, he's a theoretical physics PhD who's been questioning atomism, whether atoms even exist as physical particles or if it's more energetic. And if it is more energetic, that actually raises more questions for me about CERN and these other activities. What kinds of energies are they bringing together? Are they playing with fire? I really just don't know. Okay, well, we won't get into some of the occult rituals that have been occurring mysteriously around the CERN generator, but that is a My audience is not even ready for that. Mark, Let's not even go there, because this show is about critical thinking in politics, and suddenly Kira just brings on a wacka doodle to talk about consciousness. But I do think all of these things, even the political, especially the political aspects, are going to come together, and people need to stop assuming that we've been given all of the correct information. I don't think we've been given much of it. Actually, well, I'm really glad you just framed it that way. The idea that politics and let's just say metaphysics, that's really our discussion. What's the metaphysical framework for the reality that we exist in? These are not separate things, and it's what's actually driven me to speak and write about politics. And I've written two books of one on liberty and one on the Great Reset, which are political, socioeconomic. They tie very much to the metaphysical framework and what I would call this spiritual war. They're all intertwined and we can't separate them. And when we think about politics like I do in my Liberty book, is the way that we do government around the world in accordance with natural law, And I would argue it's not so. I think all these concepts have to come together because they exist in the same reality. So good, Yeah, I definitely want to talk about the Great Reset. I want to talk about UFOs. So will you come back on a later date to break more stuff down the. Sure, They're happy to speak with you anytime. I really appreciate your open mindedness, and we need more. I think discussions like this to try to bring together topics that seem like they're separate, but they're not, because once the pieces come together, it all clicks. It's like, no, what's happening on the news matters spiritually? Whoa like When that clicks, the mindset shifts automatically, I think in a positive way. I agree. I agree as well. Before I let you go. I have two questions I'd like to ask all of my guests. Lighthearted, but you can take it however you want. Okay, your emperor, you get to be Emperor of America. You have carte blanche powers. You can do whatever you want. But you only have one one thing you can do. You can only do one app one you know, erase one law, make one law, one act as Emperor of America. What is Well, this leads us to a very long discussion. So it might sound strange, but I would set in motion a process of dissolving government entirely because I feel that government violates natural law, it violates basic spiritual principles. And this is my book called an End to upside Down Liberty. Okay, well, we'll leave it there. If you go buy the book up and then to upside Down Liberty. Because he can't really explain all of us. That's very good. A lot of people say they would just erase parking ticket. Fine, so that's really like really deep, Mark, Okay, you start in motion the process for anarchy. Okay, so I'm being okay, great, And then the other question I like to ask is, what's one book outside of the Bible or a traditional faith text, because it's sort of an easy one. What's one book that had a significant effect on the way you think about things or see the world. Well, just since I said something so radical about government, I will appoint to you and your audience to a book called for a New Liberty by Murray Rothbard. And it's actually available for free at the Mesis Institute's website MSS dot org. They have a lot of great free resources. And when I read that book, among some other work by Murray Rothbard and others in his area, Lidbig von Misis, I just had a complete paradigm shift in terms of how I looked at government, politics and economics in ways that I hadn't considered before. So I highly recommend it just as a different way of looking at politics. For a New Liberty. It was written in the early nineteen seventies, I believe. Well, Mark, I've had a wonderful time talking to you. It's been so fascinating. I wish I could keep you for two more hours. But this is a podcast. So but the book I'm reading Everybody is an end to upside down thinking. But there are seven books in this series. It's Mark Gober g O B E. R. Mark. Tell everybody where they can find out more about you. My website is a good place to start. It's just my name, Markgober dot com, m aarkgob Er dot com. All of my books are available on Amazon in hardcopy, kindle and audible formats. I narrate the audibles myself and I also have an eight episode podcast series. It was produced in twenty nineteen, but it's still very relevant because it gets into all the topics we discussed today. I interviewed many scientists and experiencers related to topics like telepathy, near death experiences, and so forth. So I've heard from a lot of people. It's just a quick way to get up to speed on this alternate way of looking at reality. Where Is My Mind? It's available on Spotify, Apple Podcast, all the major players. Yeah, I was disappointed to see that it was only eight episodes, but it's a good eight episodes. Well, I've learned a lot and I'm definitely going to keep exploring these topics and we will for sure have you back. Mark. Thank you so much, and I hope you enjoy this new golden age in America. And I hope twenty twenty five is great for you and for our spiritual lens. Thank you so much, Kere. I really appreciate all the work that you're doing, and thank you so much for having me. That's my pleasure. Everybody, don't forget to subscribe. If you haven't subscribed already, go buy Mark's book and then write to me. J lt Y at ProtonMail dot com. J l t Y at ProtonMail dot com. Tell me I'm crazy. I really want you to tell me I'm crazy because I feel like I'm going crazy. Or tell me what Mark said that really interested you. J lt y at ProtonMail dot com. Sign up for my substack just Kira Davis dot subtack dot com or follow me on ax, Twitter, whatever you want to call it these days the platform Elon musk owns at Reelkira Davis until we meet again. Don't forget. Every once in a while, just stop and listen to yourself. A prais masoda that we won't we stay, then we won't to say oh we gott it? Does no one get take that? O anna be okay? A prayers. That we won't we stay and then we won't to say, oh we gotta does no long get take that ole. And this has been a presentation of the FCB podcast Network where real talk lives. Visit us online at fcbpodcasts dot com.