This is the FCB podcast network A praids masa that we won't to say, then we won't to say, oh we got it? Does? No more cant take that owayday this gonna be okay. Our prayers that we won't to say, and then we won't to say, oh we got it? Does No one can take that oway? Don't we say this don't be okay? Everyone, Welcome to another edition of Just Listen to Yourself with Kira Davis. I, of course, I'm your host, Kira Davis, and this is the podcast where we take hot topics, hot button issues, and we discussed our talking points and we draw those talking points out to their logical conclusion because I think that when we actually take the time to sit down and think about what we're saying, we're not always saying exactly what we thought we were. So this is say it with me and exercise and persuasion. This is an exercise in critical thinking, and boy do we need this now more than ever. You might notice that the sound today is a little might sound a little off or tinny to you. That's because I'm on the road. I'm in Texas. Everybody. I took my daughter and we escaped California. It was getting really depressing sitting around and watching My friend described it as listless. She described her kids as becoming listless. And our regular activities are beginning to come back around, But the sense of an uncertainty because we're going to enter flu season and that's going to change things again, isn't it. I mean, if the pattern so far is any indication, but we just don't have any leaders that we can depend on for stability, and so just that sense of stability and the not knowing and the lack of regular social contact in California is still really locked down. I just said, we got to get out of here. So I picked up my thirteen year old daughter and we planned a road trip through Texas and we are just driving. We're going to the places that we have friends in. Friends are putting us up, We're stopping and looking at historical sites. We're doing homework on the road. But we're just trying to go out and experience America together. And I thought Texas would be a great place to start. A because I could drive there. It was a long drive, but we made it. And B because I have so many great friends here who were willing to put us up who were willing to have us in their homes and feed us. And so far it's been great. We've been on the road a few days now and I am talking to you from college station, and I'm in a church here. I don't even know the name of the church I'm in, to be honest. I just looked at my friend's computer. He's got a sticker on the front of his computer and it says life Well, so maybe I'm in Lakewell Church. I know I'm in a lovely church, and I'm visiting my good friends Allison and Josh, who have been so kind to put my daughter and Ie up for a night. We're going to be heading to Houston later on today. But last night when we got in yesterday afternoon and my friend said, oh, you know, we've been doing a Bible study on the racial divide in church and tonight is our last night. It's about an hour long. Tonight's the last lesson. Would you like to come and sit in? And I said absolutely. I could not turn down the opportunity to see how other people were talking about this race issue in other places. When I talk to you, guys, I'm talking from the perspective of somebody who's sitting in California, which is a very unique place, of course, and we all know all of the ups and downs that come with that, and so'm I know how we're talking about it or not talking about it where I live. But it's really a different experience to be in someone else's backyard and in a whole different kind of culture and to see how those people are talking about it. So I'm exhausted, been doing a lot of driving. It's a long trip, but there was no way I could turn down this opportunity. So I left my daughter home to do some schoolwork, and she stayed at their house and we went to church, and I'm so glad i went. It was fascinating the study that they were doing. Let me look this up for you. The study that they're doing is called The Church and the Racial Divide by Trevor Atwood. So the subtitle is The Church in the Racial Divide, Finding Unity in the Race, Transcending Gospel Trevor Atwood. Now, I think it was a seven week series, and I'm not sure if I don't think it's like brand new. I think they've been developing for it for a while. I think publishing was like twenty nineteen, so it's not like they rushed this through the summer and it's based on everything that we've seen this summer. But I'll tell you what, whenever I hear that the church is addressing the race issue, it makes me nervous. And it made me think about why doesn't Why does that thought make me nervous? Like I wasn't sure what I was walking into. My friend was like, this seems to be very biblically based. I think you're gonna like it, and so I went in with an open mind, but in the back of my mind, I was like, I'm nervous about what I'm going to see here? Why am I nervous? And I realized one of the things I'm nervous about is that I am very leery of wokeism infecting the church, particularly as it relates to critical race theory and the Black Lives Matter the organization, of course, not the sentiment. And if you don't know what I mean by that, please go back and listen to my Black Lives Matter episode, which is still one of our most downloaded episodes of all time on this show. So just so you know where I stand on that, go back and listen to that. But I don't a lot of these approaches are so antithetical to the Gospel, and yet I'm seeing some churches embrace them, and I don't like that. It feels wrong. My father in law talk about this often. You all know my beloved father in law, Vic, pastor Vic, who grew up in the civil rights era, who who has really faced racism in his life. Even he is always warning against the dangers of making racial reconciliation a religion in itself. And I think that that's what was affecting me. I think that's what was bothering me. I was trying to I was trying to pinpoint it because my friends are amazing people and intelligent people and lovely people. So in my heart's like, I knew they wouldn't make me go do something that was crazy or insane or that was going to contradict the Gospel. But I think in my brain, I was thinking this could go sideways, and if it does, it's going to break my heart. Because what I'm seeing kind of infect parts of the church at large is breaking my heart. Now. I want to stop here and tell everybody that today is going to be a pretty church focused podcast because that's where I am, and that's where i'm what I'm experiencing. But even if you're not a Christian, and if you're not a believer, I hope that you'll stick with this podcast because I think in regards to how this conversation affects the larger or the larger population society at large, I do think we're still going to have some relevant conversation here, some relevant discussion. I do think there'll be some relevant points. So stick with me. And if you know the Church isn't your thing, if Jesus isn't your thing, just offer me a little grace here, because I do think that some of the stuff that I'm going to say and talk about will be relevant to what however you're struggling with this in your area of the culture. But for me, it's the church. I'm very concerned. I'm reading white fragility right now and it's horrifying me. It is antithetical to everything the Gospel stands for, everything I stand for. There's no grace, there's no atonement, there's no mercy, there's no love to it. It's just pure. It's health, it really, it's help. It's just pure judgment, blame and shame. That's what it is. It's a lot of shame. And I don't like that. And I think, what is bothering me about how this conversation is sometimes being introduced into the church. It's being introduced with the backdrop of shame. So, for instance, I was talking to my friends, their youth leaders, and we had a great conversation last night, and they really made me think about some things, gave me some stuff to bad around in my mind. And they were saying how this study came up and the pastor said, look, we're going to do this racial divide study. And immediately people were like, I am not sending my kid there. We're not doing this, I'm not having this conversation. And my friend was like very upset by that. She's like, I just don't understand. This is somebody's got to be having these conversations. Don't you want it to be us instead of your kid's school or your kid's professor, or like, God only knows what's being deposited into their minds and hearts. Don't we have to have these conversations? And she said, it just really bothered me and kind of disgusted me. And I said, you know, I gotta be honest with you. If I was a parent and the church came to me and said we're doing a racial reconciliation study, even I would be nervous about that. I too would have some questions. I wouldn't necessarily walk away, but I would have some questions because I know that sometimes what happens is it becomes a study in shame and blame. And I'm not going to send my kid into an environment where he walks in being made the enemy for the color of his skin. We wouldn't do that to my black son. We would abhor that. We would say that that's racist, that that's horrible. I don't want to do that to my friend's white son. I don't think that's fair. I don't think I don't think that's even good for their health, their psychology. There's nothing healthy. There's still healthy growth that comes from guilt and shame that isn't at least addressed in terms of grace and mercy. There's nothing to be gained there. And I do worry that we're raising a generation of children to hate themselves, which is, you know, two wrongs don't make a right. This is the message of the Gospel. This is why it is so strong. This is why this is so powerful. This is why it has been such an influential message and religion in this world. The idea that we are ought to be ashamed because of how we look it just runs counter intuitive to everything I know about how we have healthy relationships with each other and how we have a healthy relationship with our God. This is exactly why we have a God who sent atonement to I've sent something someone in our case and Christianity to atone for our sin, and even in the Judaeo Christian heritage, with my Jewish listeners will know like atonement is a huge thing in that culture, Like there's got to be a way to atone, to receive mercy, to receive grace. There has to be a way. If that is absent, then all you are left with is shame and guilt, and that will destroy a person. I am very concerned that we're raising an entire generation now of white kids who will be raised feeling that they are less than, that they are guilty simply by virtue of being of existing. And that grieves me just as much as if someone were telling my son that so yes, I do get leary of how we address this in the church, and I think we need to be very careful. Folks. You guys listen to this podcast. You know all the things I say. You know that I think we should be having these hard conversations that we need to suck it up and wade in. But at the same time, I'm not going to do it in a way that's going to destroy the personality and the coping mechanisms and the confidence of another human being. That's not what this conversation is. That's not what this conversation should be. And unfortunately, I think the squeaky wheels are getting all the grease. But what I saw in this church last night was a group of people who were willing to have the conversation. That's what I want to talk about today. How do we have the race conversation? How do we have it in a way that doesn't alienate one side or the other? By the way, this doesn't need to be a one side or the other thing. You guys who are listening to this show, you know that I'm a big fan of finding that middle ground of finding and I don't hide my views. I don't hide who I am politically, I'm very open about what I believe. I feel no shame or guilt that's what I believe. But at the same time, I fully recognize that I live in a society that leeds three hundred and twenty five million people in this country. We're not all going to feel the same way. We're not all going to think the same way. Even in the church, Christians don't worship the same way, and I am. This tour of Texas that I'm doing is very illuminating in that respect. I was staying with friends just yesterday who are of a different faith, and today friends who are worshiping a different kind of church than is my than my church, and tomorrow I'll be with people who are Now I think about these are all Christians in some way, They're all worshipers in some way, but we're all different. And traveling across the state has been a really great lesson for my daughter and I about how different we are. We can be honest about who we are. You know, I do not recommend hiding who you are or what you believe, but I do believe that there is a way for us to at least find some middle ground of understanding even if we don't agree, even if we don't come to a conclusion, I don't even think we should be agreeing on everything. To be honest, what do I always say? There? God, there's got to be a push and a pull. There, there's no left without right, there's no up without down, there's no dark without light. All of these things go together, and we can pull too far to one side or the other if we don't have people yelling about it. So your passion and you even your anger sometimes are necessary. I'm not telling you to put those away, but I am saying the longer this goes on, the more I realize this conversation is way more complicated than I first gave it credit for, because human beings are complicated creatures. So today will be really I want to address this in the respect of how we're talking about it in the church, but I don't want to alienate anybody who is not a believer or who might come from a different faith tradition. I help you stick with me, and maybe you can pull out some nuggets here that will help you in your faith tradition or lack thereof, in your office or your home or whatever. So let's get started. How should we discuss race? One of the things I was concerned about coming into this study last night was is this going to be a woke study? Is this going to be super woke? And I'm going to sit there and watch all these white people feel guilty about stuff. I actually find that to be quite distasteful. I don't. I don't, and that's just me. Maybe some black people enjoy it, I know, I don't. I don't. Really all almost makes me feel like it's a form of racism in a way. It feels like a form of otherising. It's still otherising me, Like, look how guilty I am. Doesn't this make me good? Don't you see how good I am? And maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it just makes me very uncomfortable. I don't like it, And so I was like, is that what I'm going into? But it wasn't that at all. I've only seen one lesson of this study that they were doing, and I thought it was really even handed. The pastor has some good things to say. Some of it I didn't agree with, but some of some of it he made some really good points. When I was talking to my friend about how the church addressed this study. How they announced that they were doing this study, how some people pushed back they didn't like it. I understood because there is a good contingency contingent of people who are like, this is going to feel woke. I don't, and I don't like that. And by the way, I don't like the woke culture either. I think that's all aesthetical to the gospel. I don't like the term social justice because there's only one justice, and once you start dividing up justice, it stops being justice. There is justice, that justice with a capital J. There's not social justice. What's the opposite of social justice? Like, what's the other kind of justice? There's social justice? And what kind of justice? Right? There's justice. It comes at the hands of a creator. But as I was wondering if this was going to be a big woke fest, I thought to myself, you know what, there's two extremes here, and we as a church and as American society, need to be careful that we don't hit either one. It's either go woke or go broke if we go too far to the other extreme. I'll use this White Fragility book as an example a critical racer theory as an example, we will just be recreating the same problem that we're trying to fight, which is division, which is shaming people, which is judging people for the color of their skin, which is judging people for their diverse beliefs, for how they think, for how their families operate. We're just gonna end up in the same place. We're just flipping the script. That is not justice, that is certainly not grace. But at the same time, if we don't talk about this, if we pretend it doesn't exist, what happens we go broke, We'll be morally bankrupt. My friends and I were chatting last night, and again they're youth leaders, and some parents they were annoyed. But I get it as a parent, I get some parents were upset and we're like, no, I'm not sending my kid to this. But as we were saying, I think I told you guys this story right about how my kid was like telling me all this stuff about Trump, Trump does this, and Trump said that, and none of it was true. I know because it's my job to report on it every day, and none of it was true. But I was like, where did you hear that? And she was like on TikTok, and my friend's mom told me. And I've been trying to keep her out of these political discussions because I feel there for adults. And then I realized, no, if I'm not talking to her about this, somebody is. And that's what my friends were saying. Why don't they understand that? And I think you guys should, I think we all should understand this, that if we're not having these conversations with our children or with our neighbors, somebody else is. Do you want that person to set the narrative or do you want to be a part of that narrative? Do you want to shape that narrative? Do you want the wokesters setting the church agenda? Or do you want to show up on a Sunday night for this study that could possibly go a little wokeish and have your say and have an input. Which do you want to be on We can ignore the problem and then we will then we will be bankrupt as a society and a church. Or we can over emphasize the problem and then we can go to the extreme of wokeness, in which we make people guilty simply by virtue of existing, and that is a sin too. It's every bit as much a sin as racism is. But I came to the conclusion last night that we have to be having these conversations. So what we did is we watched this little video, and then we broke into small groups. And I think there were two black people in the whole church. I think there was another woman on the other side, and there was me, and I was the visitor. But I was so encouraged to hear that people were thinking about this. I was in a group with some young people and oh my gosh, they were so thoughtful, and so it really gave me hope. The conversation could have been uncomfortable and ugly, but everyone gave a chance each other, a chance to speak. You know, if I'm being honest with you, and I have no other choice on this podcast but to be honest with you, You guys know how I do it. I struggle with these conversations because sometimes I feel people put too much value on what I say because I'm black white people. I mean, it makes me feel a little bit of pressure, but also it makes me feel like their people are waiting for permission to think something or speak something. And I don't care what you look like or where you come from. Your opinion is valuable, what you think is important. I want you to feel open, and I understand that society necessarily doesn't necessarily make people make us feel comfortable being open, but that's how I feel about it. I don't like that. So starting the conversation, I was hoping that my presence wouldn't be a distraction from people speaking how they want to speak. And by the way, everybody had really great things to say, especially so a couple of these kids like blew me away with their wisdom, which gave me such hope for this whole thing, for this whole conversation, for the future of our country, for the future of the church, really gave me such hope. But I realized, like if I said to my friends, no, I don't want to go because it's probably going to be woke and I just don't have the energy for it. I've been driving for forty hours. I don't want to sit here and listen to y'all be woke and figure out how to forgive each other's racial sins. If I had said that, I wouldn't have been able to be a part of the conversation. And I got to say some things. By the way, I think I gained a new listener too while I was there. But I got to say some things that I think people needed to hear from the perspective of a minority, of a black woman. I got to say some things about grace, about how this is a two sided issue, how this is a two way street, how we all have to treat each other as if we are serving each other, and how when we view our neighbors as people that we are called to serve, it changes everything about how you look about at your neighbor, whether you're black or white, Asian, man or woman, rich or poor. When you start looking at the person in front of you as someone you are called to serve, it changes the very nature of the conversation. That's an input I got to have. And I don't know if that affected anybody, or if that moved anybody, or if I said anything, you know, particularly revelatory, but I would My point is, folks, is that I was there to be in the conversation. So I guess this would be the point number one. If you're asking yourself, what if this study, this Bible study, or this diversity book club that I'm going to whatever it is in your little corner of the world that you're going to that you're worried about. If your question is what if it's too woke, what if it feels like a rejection? What if it what if it muddies the water for my kids, the answer is get in on the conversation. You be a part of it. Don't leave it behind. Because space aboards a vacuum. Guys, something's going to fill the space. If your voice of reason and grace and love is not there, what do you think is going to be left to fill the void? Wrongness, right, or what we might consider to be wrong. By the way, it's not just about convincing people that you're right or or it's not even about changing your mind, But it is about this middle ground that can never be found unless there is left and right, up and down, dark and light. All of these things need to be present in us in order for us to find this middle ground that we can all live in and thrive in. You must be a part of the conversation. You cannot be afraid of the quote wokeness of the irreligiosity of it? Is that a word you cannot be You cannot be afraid and I know we talk about this a lot. We had an amazing zoom call by the way, A couple was it last week. Guys, my my time clock is off, my body's clock is off from all this driving and traveling. But we had such a fun zoom call. I think there was about six or seven of us on there, and but that was one of the things we talked about. A couple of the people, like my friend Becky was like, I just I want to have the conversations, but it makes me so anxious and angry, and I feel I feel upset, and I feel like I'm unfairly judged, and it makes me just shut down, like, well, it's not even worth it then, And I get that, I do. And the last episode we talked about how do we have political conversations, the difficult political conversations, and I said, some things you need to walk away from if there's no progress being made, there's no value in this conversation at the moment. I get that, but I think if you're out there thinking I don't want to be a part of the conversation because it's just going to be a blame game, going to make me angry. I want you to remember that if you're not a part of the conversation, the conversation is being had anyway. Do you want to leave that conversation to your kids' postgrad professor in college, or do you want to be involved in that conversation and to see how it is shaping up? Even in your church, your pastor may feel like he's going a little bit sideways with the wokeism. It may feel that way. But instead of walking out, instead of getting up and leaving, what if you became a part of the conversation And I get it, that requires that the pastor in turn must have tolerance for your view. And that's why this is so hard, because this is all a two way street, and there's plenty of people on the other side of this issue who don't want it to be who are very happy to judge you as a racist or a bigot or whatever because you might look at this differently. I understand that, I understand that fear, but someone's got to take the first step, going to be you were going to be them'. If you know it's never going to be them to take the first step, then you are absolutely obligated to take the first step. Wait in there, don't let only a certain type of person or a certain belief structure dominate the conversation. The conversation is being had whether you're there or not, you might as well be there. So I'm telling some of you to suck it up and get in there because the churches, some churches are having these conversations. By the way, what I saw last night was completely heartening and edifying. And I saw nothing, at least in that lesson that made me feel uncomfortable about the direction they might be going in. I didn't see the other lessons. I don't know what they looked like, but even from the conversations that I had, it didn't feel like the blame game. It really felt like a good conversation. And by the way, I didn't agree with everything that the pastor said. Their pastor had a few moments where he spoke, and then the pastor on the video, like I didn't agree with every single thing they said, But I left feeling good about the conversation and I was glad I got to be a part of it. I think you'll be glad too. And it's good for your pastor to know that you're there and that you care, and that You're not leaving just because this makes you mad, So get in on the conversation. Did Paul Revere really say the British are coming? And how is George Washington chosen to leave the first American Army. Join us for the Growing Patriot podcast, a place for curious kids to ask the big questions about our nation's history and get kid friendly answers from the country's top experts. Help your child learn about and cherish America's exceptional history. Subscribe to Growing Patriots on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Today, a lot of people will say, well, what if I get angry and it makes me angry towards my brothers and sisters and the congregation, or my co workers or my family members. What if it makes me angry, then say that. Then say that, but try to be gracious, don't holler at people. That's not the way. You can go back and listen to the last episode for more tips on how to do this. That's not the way, But it's okay, guys. There's a lot of people angry about race and racism and bigotry right now. Right they're raging in the streets, they're burning things, down. You're allowed to be angry too. It's okay to be angry, and it's I think it's helpful to tell your leadership that you're angry, as long as you do it gracefully, graciously. You know you're not that. It's not an attack, but it's an expression. I was telling my friends last night who are familiar with my church in California. I wrote a strongly worded letter to my pastor, and the pastor's a mutual friend of ours, about how I feel the church has been failing in this race conversation. During COVID, we completely shut down when we needed to be open and being guided. You know, I was all for the shutdowns and being health conscious and safe. But after we're day two hundred and two, as I record this, at a certain point, the church has got to say we're going to let God be God, and we're going to trust that God's going to protect us, and even if we get fined by the state, that God will be there to keep our church open. And if the church closes, then that's God's will too. You know, I didn't leave the church. I don't walk away from the church. I have felt burned by my church I have felt a little bit abandoned by my church, particularly with this race discussion. You know, it's made me sad that no one's really reached There's not many, very very many black people in the congregation. It has made me a little sad that no one's reached out to see if we're doing okay with all this. But I haven't left. My voice is still important. How will they even know that perhaps they've made a mistake in how they're dealing with their minority congregants if no one like me is there to say anything. And maybe I'm wrong, you know, maybe I'm wrong to feel this way. I haven't even gone in to have these personal face to face conversations with my leadership yet if I ever get the opportunity. The point is is that for me to walk away takes my voice out of the conversation. And I believe my voice is important and I'm angry about this, that and the other I have every right to express it, just like those people burning down stuff, which you're not doing. You have every right to express that It's okay if some of this stuff makes you angry, that's all right. That's your spirit rising up and saying I don't think there's something's not right here. That's when you open the discussion. Do it with grace, though, Don't do it with accusations or coming in thinking you're going to prove somebody right or wrong. Come in to the conversation feeling like you're going to express yourself. And then the hard part is sitting back and letting people say things that might hurt you. But we talk about that a lot on the show. On this show, don't we What if it hurts? I have this on my little list here that I'm going through. What if it hurts? What if what they say is hurtful? Yeah? Yeah, what if it is hurtful. I've seen some of my white friends make some very dramatic shifts in their thinking, and even some of you listeners out there who have reached out to me and said, you know, I listened to your episode on Black Lives Matter or George Floyd or made Arbory or systemic racism, and I didn't like everything you had to say, and some of it hurt me because I felt judged. But when I calmed down, I actually think I changed my mind about this. I actually think I had a moment where I realized I need a different approach. What if this hurts me, Well, guess what. Growth never feels comfortable. I'm trying to think of the last time that I had a real shift in my belief system, or I had a realization that felt really good and comfortable and made me feel happy. I'm really trying to think, and I can't think of a time when it felt good. I don't think change feels good. One of our listeners, Becky, she said this on the Zoom call too. She's like, I hate it when people say change is hard. I don't want change. I don't want to talk about change. I don't want to talk about how hard change is. I don't want things to change. Shut up about how hard it is. I feel the same way, Becky, I feel the same way, and yet there is no change that's easy. Would you want that? You know we all say nothing good comes easy. Yeah, that's not just a cliche, that's true. Do you want the good things that come easy? They stop being good when they're easy, don't they. This isn't not a funny thing about how the world works. If we want the church or your workplace, or your synagogue, wherever you are, wherever your corner is right now in society. If we want to see positive change, Yeah, some of us are gonna have to get hurt, some of us are gonna have to get our feelings hurt. But I have really good news for you. You don't have to stay in that place. You can decide to learn. You can decide that even though, like I was last night, even though I'm not feeling everything this pastor's saying, I'm listening to the stuff that I do get. I'm listening to the stuff that feels like middle ground to me, And I think we can find a space that that is, that growth space that feels like a little tense and uncomfortable. But if we ride it out instead of walk away, will come away being richer human beings. We'll have more depth, We'll be able to see these conversations a little differently, and instead of being scared of them and walking away like some of those parents were telling my friends, no, no, no, I'm definitely not sending my kid to this, instead of being scared, we can feel confident that at least something of value is being discussed, and at least these ideas are getting out there. Why haven't we been talking about this before. I've said this before. I hate the idiots, the idiocy. I don't hate the idiots. I hate the idiocy of riding and burning in the streets. There are some people who are protesting because they feel that that is the right thing to do, and they are what the media is labeling everyone a piece will prowester. But the weirdest thing, isn't it that guy, you know, that guy on CNN standing in front of a burning building, like it's mostly peaceful, okay, bag Dad, Bob. But there is a peaceful contingent, right, So there are some people who are just genuinely concerned and want to have their say. But like you, I can't stand the idiots that come out later on in the day and burn down businesses, burn down black owned businesses, burn down our neighborhoods, and then leave, destroy our neighborhoods and then leave. Just they're agents of chaos and nothing else. I get it. I don't like that either. I don't want that. But the upside of this is that we're having conversations we've never had before that perhaps we should have been having all along. And that's because of these rioters. That's because of these idiots. Out there. So yeah, it's a two sided coin. It's not all of one thing and none of the other. Guys. I hate to tell you this, and I even hate to admit it, but we would not be having these conversations if not for these idiots burning stuff down in the streets. So there is a small silver lining here in particular. In particular, the church probably should have been having these conversations a long time ago, but we've become very comfortable in our Western version of Christianity, which is a very comfortable and up until recently protected brand of Christianity. I think COVID has knocked us off our game a little bit and the ensuing race issues. But this doesn't have to be a thing. In fact, I don't think this is an evil thing. I think this is a God thing. I think this is sometimes God gives us over to our sin and temptation. It's not that he's like punishing us. He simply takes the reins off and says, okay, fine, you want to do it your way. My hands are off. I wash my hands of this. So like, let's see how it rolls out when you guys are in charge. And I think we are living through a time in history when God has given us over to ourselves and now we're seeing what the results of that are. That's chaos. But out of the chaos this is biblical as well. There can come silver linings. God can use everything for good, and I believe, particularly in the Church, this could be a really transformative time for us if we would open ourselves up to having the uncomfortable discussions. And I don't mean the blaming discussions. I don't want you to feel blamed. You are not evil, you are not a bad person, you're not a racist, you're not a white supremacist. But we all come to the table with biases and prejudices, or, as you guys know, I say all the time, a different perspective, and perspective is everything. Did Paul Revere really say the British are coming? And how is George Washington chosen to leave the First American Army. Join us for the Growing Patriot podcast, a place for curious kids to ask the big questions about our nation's history and get kid friendly answers from the country's top experts. Help your child learn about and cherish America's exceptional history. Subscribe to Growing Patriots on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Today, it's time for us as a church guys to start considering that our perspective might not be the perspective. Here's a great example. One of the kids in our discussion group last night said his dad was a missionary and went to do some work I think he said in South Africa, but on the African continent somewhere. And he said his dad was talking to a gentleman from the village there, talking about the gospel, sharing the gospel because Christians we evangelize, that's what we do. And the guy said, I'm not interested in your white Jesus. Jesus is a white god. Got you know the Lord Jesus in particular, that concept is a white concept. And I don't want your white guy. And he said his dead and in turn him like, as his dad is telling him the story, his dad was like, I never thought about it from that perspective. I never realized that this man might that there are people out there who might look at Christianity as a quote white religion because of how it's connected to history and colonialism, and it's connected to all these things that are have been oppressive or sometimes have been misguided or even cruel, because humans are simply humans. We're all sinners, and so no matter how perfect the gospel is, the conduits are never perfect. And his father said it never. It never occurred to me that that is the point of view that somebody might be looking. I'm offering him Jesus and this guy he can't even come to the table to talk about Jesus because for him and that's just a white guy that wants to oppress him, Jesus is And he said it really changed something for his dad. And then I said, wow, I didn't know there were people out there who didn't know that there are a lot of black people who feel this way about Jesus in the black community. It's not Blacks are mostly black. Americans are mostly a Christian. I think eighty six percent. I think it's higher than that, to be honest, but eighty six percent identify as Christian. But it's not hard to be in any black, largely black community and find somebody who's like, oh, no, I don't worship Jesus. That's white. That's a white guy. Jesus is a white religion to me. Hearing him tell that story about his dad I was like, Wow, I didn't know that there was anyone that didn't know. We feel like that sometimes that there are some people in our communities who look at guy's perspective, is everything again we don't have if we're not at the table. That conversation never never happened. We learned something about each other, and we learned by the way. It wasn't an accusatory conversation. It wasn't like, oh, you idiot. He didn't say that to me. I didn't say that to him. I wouldn't think that about his dad. It was like a oh, yeah, of course you don't. You don't see it this way. What if I get hurt? What if you do? What if you do get hurt then? What let's play that out. What if you do? What if you go to your church or your book club and you start this conversation and somebody accuses you of something that may or may not be true and it hurts your feelings, what then what will you do? Will you melt, will you fall apart, will you lose your home? Will your children leave? Will your health fail? What's the next step after your feelings being hurt? What if you do get hurt You're gonna be fine. Getting hurt doesn't mean have to walk away. But the idea of these uncomfortable conversations that we have to have. By the way, it's not just about you. It's not just about how you'll be made uncomfortable. What about the people that you'll be speaking to. Who's going to challenge them if you're not at the table, who's going to challenge them to think, to parse out their ideas. Who's going to offer them the chance to grow by hearing something they don't want to hear or being hurt. I would love to see some of you, instead of rejecting these woke agendas that you feel might be invading your church. I would love to see some of you get into those studies, go sit at that table, and then tell people how you feel and don't be accusatory. That's the problem I'm hearing, Like I'm listening to my friends last night talk about some of the pushback they're getting from parents or church members, and they're feeling hurt by it. You know, they're feeling like, no, we just want to lead this conversation. Why is everybody being so awful about it? This woman stood up and said I'll never do this, and I absolutely will not send my kid to this. Don't be that woman. That woman is hurtful, that woman is stubborn, that woman doesn't sound reasonable. What if you are the woman who comes to the table and says, after you get your woke lesson or whatever it is that makes you uncomfortable about the conversation, and when it's your turn to talk, what if you say, I want to be a part of this conversation. And I understand that we have a long way to go with race, and I don't And I understand that I might not get everything, but sometimes it feels like I'm the bad guy, and I don't want to. I don't want to be the bad guy, and I don't think of myself as the bad guy just because I want to vote for Trump, or just because I think we should build a wall, or just because I I don't think that white people should be running around apologizing for everything all the time simply because they're white. What if you said that. What if you were just honest about how hurt you are, instead of framing it as I'm sick of you blaming me, which is defensive. What if you came at it from a position of this is how I feel. If we're asking others to talk about their experience with racism in the church and how it's hurt them. You're asking other people to be vulnerable. Why don't you be a little vulnerable too. Instead of walking away from that conversation, what if you came to the table and said, I'm hurt, I feel blamed, and I don't feel like it's fair, and I don't feel like anyone's asked me what I think of this. And again, that's a two way street. So I'd like to if I've got any listeners here on the other side of this conversation, I would love to implore you to please listen to those people. Don't label that woman as a racist simply because she's saying I don't like being blamed for everything. I would never own a slave, I would never discriminate it, but against anyone. Larger conversations to be had about perspective and bias and privilege and all that. But like, let these people be vulnerable without labeling them as the enemy. Please, this works both ways. This is, honest to God, a two way street, and I mean that seriously, honest to our God, this is a two way street. Please, people, let's have some grace for each other. Even if you think you're right, let's start to wrap this up. The conversation has to continue. I'm sorry. I told you guys, this is going to be a long summer at the beginning, didn't I. Now we're in fall d two hundred and two of thirty days to slow the spread. We're in unprecedented times, and it's time for us to be right, brave, to kind of suck it up, regroup and get out there and be a part of this change. Do not run away from it, even if it feels like your church is just really stepping on the line or about to cross the line. And by the way, I don't want to tell you to stay in a church that's not edifying to you or it's not meeting your needs. I get that, like at some point we've all got to do what's best for our family or what we feel God is leading us too. But what I'm saying is, don't let that be your first instinct. Don't walk away. Don't walk away so quickly get to the table. If your church is studying the book White Fragility, I highly suggest you get in that study. If you have any good sense in your head, you should be a part of that study because that book is beginning to permeate some of our religious sectors and it's problematic, to say the least. And my friend asked me an interesting question last night. She said, well, what other like Christian books on race do you know of? Are there any Christian studies on race and racial relations? And I was like, I don't know. Now. For me, I don't know, because race my life every day. I'm Black, Like I live this conversation in reality every day. I don't. I've never felt moved to go read about race. I live it every day. I don't have the privilege of living in a majority culture where it doesn't necessarily permeate my every action. For me, it is a part of being. But and I know they're out there. But I was like, that's actually a good question. So she said, look, White Fragility. May. I was telling her, please don't read this book and don't let it come anywhere near your church, Like, you have to trust me on this. It is completely anesthetical to everything we believe as Christians. But she said, Okay, I get that, But if you've never had a conversation about race. If you've never sat down to think on a deeper level about these issues, and the first book someone offers you is White Fragility, and you read that, Yeah, You're going to think like that, this is the gospel. You're going to be like, oh wow, these are idea is everyone must be thinking this. I was just behind the times. So if White Fragility is your first point of contact, that might actually feel like gospel to you, which is something I hadn't thought about. So maybe what you do is you come to you go do some research on what other good studies might be out there about the issue of race. And I loved their subtitle for this study Transcending race. The Gospel transcends race. It doesn't erase race. It transcends it, recognizes it, and then rises above it to something even greater than the beauty of diversity we see here on earth. We've stopped at the beauty of diversity. We're not perfected yet, and now I'm taking it to church, y'all. But you know, one day we'll be perfected and then we will see the fulfillment of diversity and why we are all so different but we have no choice right now. But to stop at diversity, Well, look, why don't you go find a book that really floors the gospel and race in a way that makes you feel comfortable, and then bring that book to the table. And again please not accusatorially, not saying you guys have this wrong. If you don't do this, then I'm leaving. Come with your own ideas and bring those to the table. Now, if those people refuse to make space for you, then perhaps that isn't the church for you. If those people want to shut you down, immediately dismiss you and will not let you speak, that's not even that's not gospel, that's not Christian, that's not even American. So maybe you do think about leaving that. If you've, if you've made a good faith effort to be open minded and to listen and to do your part, and they still don't want to give you a seat at the table, yeah, maybe you do think about it. But maybe you don't come in hot. Maybe you come in with your alternative views. Perspective is everything. If your perspective isn't at the time table, who's going to be filling the vacuum. Somebody's talking to your kids about this It's like my friend said, today, somebody's talking to your kids about sex. Maybe you better have an input on that and what it's about and how it should be in Look, if somebody's doing it, do you want to leave it to TikTok to do it? Get to the table, guys. That's what I saw last night, a bunch of people who wanted to be at the table, and I really appreciated it. And it didn't feel like a combative atmosphere. Even though behind the scenes there might be some leadership tension in the sanctuary, it didn't feel combative, and I was so heartened by the amount of people I saw there who were just curious. I want to know. I had briefly in our church back in California, we had a community pastor who came from the Muslim tradition and wanted to start a outreach to the Muslim community. But because you, just like with Jewish people, you don't like evangelism is completely it's the opposite of what they do, right, Like it's antithetical to everything they believe in. It's offensive. So it wasn't like an evangelism thing, but it was like an outreach thing, like, how do you become friends with these people. How do you invite them into your community so they feel comfortable? How do you make them feel a part of your community and develop relationships? And at that time, it was like there was a lot of tension between the American community and the foreign Islamic community that was starting to immigrate, and I wanted to be a part of it. It's like I knew I had my ideas. I knew I had my judgments, and just like everybody else after nine eleve and I have my own my own issues. But I love Jesus and I love the gospel. I love the message of grace and unity in the Gospel, and I wanted my heart to change. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to join this. I didn't join it as a way to figure out how do I change these Muslims. I joined it as a way to figure out how do I let them change me in a good way? How do I let them round out my faith? Unfortunately, the ministry fell apart. I don't really know what happened to it. There might have been some political things at play. I have no idea. We just stopped doing it, and unfortunately it never advanced beyond a few meetings, But for a moment, I thought, Yeah, how do these conversations happen if I'm not even at the table, I'm already coming to the table, Like if I'm all already coming in going oh no, If this conversation doesn't go this way, then I'm out. That's it. Then what have I changed? We need to be having these conversations at the end of the lessons last night. That's what the pastor said, keep the conversations open, and I want to leave you guys with that, keep the conversations going. Now, what does that mean? Should you go out and find the nearest black person and demand they talk to you about race? Please, God, no, don't do that. That's weird. I think most of you listening to this out of my voice would agree that's weird. But what do you do? What if you live in an area like my friends live here in Texas where there aren't a lot of I mean, it's not a huge black population. I mean they might have Asian or Hispanic, but not necessarily black. What do you do You want to be in the conversation, but you don't want to be intrusive about it or demanding about it. Maybe it looks like you having the conversation with other white people, with people that like you in your community. I'm noticing that white people are the ones leading these conversations and having these conversations, and oftentimes black people still aren't included in the conversations. But guess what, sometimes they're just not there demographically speaking. Sometimes they just aren't available to have the conversations with. And sometimes it's still white people going or we're going to dominate the conversation, you know it. Sometimes it's both. Maybe this is something for you to think about. What if you are the person that says, you know what if you are that person, by the way, what if you are that person who's like still, you're like me, You're like a little leery of woke culture, You're nervous about critical race theory getting inserted into your gospel or your office situation. But what if you were the one to lead the conversation. How would it look different? Then? What if you didn't wait for somebody else to do it? What if you were the one that went to your boss and said, you know what, I think this is a great time for us to talk about race and equality. Here's a great study I found that isn't white fragility. What if you led the conversation? Would it look different? Would it feel different? Instead of waiting for other people to do it, or instead of cursing people because they're doing it and they're doing it wrong, What if we led the conversation. How do we be conversation leaders? Keep the conversation open. Perspective is everything. One of the things you can do to foster new perspective is to go hire those people into your church. We talked a little bit about that my friends and I. Hire those people into your church, Go recruit them. Make an effort at my blog at red State, I make an effort to go find black writers. And yeah, that means I have to identify people by their color. I know that runs counter to a lot of how we speak about people being equal and not seeing color and everything. But the tone of an article changes dramatically simply by the race of the author writing it. Suddenly different things are more important. This person sees it from this perspective, while his white counterpart might see something totally different. And those are valuable. By the way, neither one is better than the other. So one thing you can do to keep the conversation going and to help stay on top of this difference between woke versus broke, going woke versus going broke, making sure that you're not on those either of those extremes. Go find those people, hire them into your church. If you can't find them, let them entern pastors. Let me talk to you for one second before we go here. If you are the lead of a majority white church and you want to open the doors for more minorities to feel comfortable in your church, but you don't know how to do it. Black churches are everywhere. Eighty six percent of us are Christians. There are small, struggling black churches all over your city right now that are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. They don't have the dithing base to really thrive, but they're simply in it for the service, and they gotta be careful. You got to find the right people who are it's got to be gospel oriented. Some people are just in it for you know, the wrong reasons, just like with anything, but you got to be sensitive to where the spirit's leading you to find those those churches. Go to one of those churches, partner with that pastor and say, do you have a guy who's longing to be a youth pastor but you can't put them on your payroll. Send him out to us. We're gonna pay for an apartment for him, or a little efficiency apartment in the church, or you know, a room in the pastor's house. Six months, we're gonna train him up. We're gonna help let him lead our children and teach him how to lead youth groups. And now we've apprenticed him into either leadership in our church or to go back to your church with new skills and tools and connections. I would like to challenge white pastors to start thinking like that, to start doing stuff like that. What if that's the way we foster this conversation rather than sitting people down in a Bible study and accusing them, which, by the way, is not what happened last night. I'm not saying that, but some people are worried that that's how this is going to go down. What if you partnered those studies with action. What if you went to that black church and said, hey, you guys lead our vacation Bible study this year, why don't you guys come out. We'll host you for the week, and you guys structure our vacation Bible study, and you guys teach it. I can guarantee you that the way an older black woman teaches vacation Bible STUDI is going to be completely different than what a thirty year old white woman teaches. It's going to look completely different. The basis might be the same, but the perspective is different. So if we want to foster these conversations and foster change and being part of the change and all those wonderful cliches, what if we started looking at this from a perspective of participating in the conversation and the efforts to diversify rather than separating ourselves from them because we're worried about how sideways it's all going to go. What if you led the conversation. I'll leave it there cause we're about an hour. We don't want a repeat of last week dooe, where that one went forever. So I'm gonna take off now. I've got to go and pick up my daughter. We're heading up to Houston today, and so far it's been a really fun and interesting trip. Like I'm exhausted, I'm still trying to work on the road. We're still trying to do school on the road. It's not all going perfectly, but I am so glad so far that we have done this trip. We've got to see a different part of the country, and my daughter has got to see how people live differently from us in southern California. The landscape looks different, the food is different, the way people talk to each other is different, the way people talk is different, the houses look different. It's been a real pleasure to be in people's homes and I'm really looking forward to doing more of that. Each family has had something different to offer us so far, and it's been wonderful. If you have the ability to do this, I recommend it. I do. This is even giving me a new perspective on my fellow Americans, my fellow Christians, even my friends. It's giving me a new way to look at things. And there's no better way to appreciate people than to avail yourself of their hospitality. So maybe think about doing something like this. I don't know, it's not for everybody, but we're having a good time, So bear with me this week as these podcasts might be a little spotty on social media. I'm in and out because I'm doing a lot of driving. Bear with me. I'm I'm I'm here. I'm not going anywhere. I'm just taking this time to be with my daughter and checking in with you guys when and where I can in the meantime until we talk again. Don't forget. Every once in a while, just stop and listen to yourself. Bye, guys, God blessed Texas. Our prayers ASDA that we won't to bathe and then we won't to say, oh we got it does? No one can take that? Owen, It is gonna be okay. A prayers as that we won't with bath and then we won't to say, oh we got it does? No one can take that, Owen. Don't bay it, don't be okay. This has been a presentation of the FCB podcast Network, where Real Talk lives. Visit us online at fcbpodcasts dot com.
