Ep. 147 - Guest: Nikki Marmery

Now this is the FCB Podcast Network. This is Fast Stage Pass with Victoria Henley. Hi everybody, and welcome back into another episode of Backstage Pass. It's Victoria Henley here, and I am so excited about our guest today. We have the author of Lilith, Nicki, Marmarie Nicki. How are you doing. I'm so well. Thank you so much for having me on, Victoria. I'm so delighted to speak to you today. Oh it is all my pleasure, rest assured. So a little background on Nicki before we just kind of give the mic over to her and hear what she has to say. I was wandering through the bookstore and I saw Lilith, and I'm a big fan of the stories, but not so much her villain how she's been villainized over the years. But for those of you that may not know, Lilith was Adam's first wife, and she was ostracized and banished because she did not fall into the whole submit to your husband. She didn't allow Adam to dominate her, and so it's kind of, you know, started out a little bit of a villain origin story, but then it was retold in several feminist magazines in the seventies to be a more empowering story. Nikki, I've never heard Lilith told quite like you've told it. I was just I was shaken to my core. I was just absolutely entranced. Can you walk us through what was this process? Like, what was the inspiration for creating this book? Well, really, the idea really was to use this this myth which it purports to explain the inferiority of women, you know, the original myth, That's what it's trying to explain. So I wanted to use that to really look at where this comes from, this idea that that man is superior, woman is inferior, right, this inequality between the sexes, and I wanted to look at that through the lens of this mythical character Lilith. But really what I also wanted to do was really look at the way this refers to historical reality, you know, to how things you know, started in the ancient world, to that loss of equality that women did experience in the Bronze Age and why. And I wanted to show I wanted to look at it through the biblical stories that we all know very well, to look at this process, to look at this process of the inferiorization of women and how it affects the way we live today. That was very much a big part of it. I wanted to bring it up to the present day and show the consequences of that thousands of years old idea, the idea that man is superior is inferior, of course. And you know, I have to ask Nikki because the way that this story is written, I mean, you obviously know the story of Adam and Eve very well, lil was it was told. It was told so well and so beautifully. As for someone like myself who grew up surrounded by evangelical patriarchy essentially, I mean, luckily I was born into a very educated, open minded family, but I've seen that kind of paradigm a lot where women were told, you know, Bible verses were used to you know, submit to your husband, and just different things really held women back from their full potential. And I watched in shock and horror as women were just kind of pushed down. Let me ask, have you were there any personal experiences that you've had in this realm that affected the writing process of your book, or maybe anybody that you've witnessed. Was there any influence like that well, how very fortunate. You know, I don't come from that sort of background. I didn't, That's not how I was brought up. I wasn't brought up in a very religious environment at all. But so reading these biblical stories and seeing the weight that they have in the modern world, that's really what my my inspiration was, you know, seeing the way, you know, everything we have in the Western world, everything our entire culture, with the institutions we have, everything has been built by people who believed that story, who believe that female inferiority is ordained by God. And that's a big problem. You know, even if many many people today don't believe that anymore, everything we have has been built on that foundation. And that's what troubles me. And that's what I wanted to draw attention to really with this book. I wanted to draw attention to that absurdity of so much of our modern life has its roots in these very very ancient, misogynistic ideas that were not coincidental. To keep women down. That was the whole point of them. That was, you know, that's why they evolved, That was that was absolutely the number one priority. That's why you have this story in which there's you know, God, the father who creates life without a mother. You know, where's the mother? Sure who creates man in his own image as the pinnacle of creation, woman as an afterthought to be his, to be his servant. You know who creates a story like that? Men that it's not a woman's story, it's a man's story. And I just wanted to draw attention to that, to the absurdity of how that story still has weight in the modern world. Niki, you're you're very interactive. You know, some authors you find to be a little bit more reclusive, but on social media, you and which is how we initially connected. You interact with your readers, and I respect that and I appreciate that a lot. There are several, I mean, every element of this book, and to our listeners, we're going to be posting these links so you can find the book so you can keep up with Nicki. But Nikki, I have to ask you, have you heard any stories from women that maybe have had experiences like this of being treated I mean, I would feel that probably every woman has experienced the weight of the misogyn misogynistic nature of this world on their shoulders a bit. What kind of stories if any have you heard from women how they've been impacted by the words in your book. Well, this is the wonderful thing, Victoria. And actually it was a very unexpected thing. You know, as I was getting ready to publish the book, this book, I was quite nervous. You know, there are many things in this book that I understand are controversial and potentially provocative. Right, I was nervous about that, but there were still things that I wanted to say. But what I hadn't anticipated actually was hearing from women with who had, you know, very very religious backgrounds. Hearing from women to say that this book had healed lot lots of women have used the word healing, actually, which is just incredibly moving to me. So I have heard that from from a lot of women with very religious backgrounds that they found this book very healing. To come from background where you are told that women are inferior, they must submit, women must do this, you know, and all the you know, all the benefits and advantages in life are man's and it is your job to put up with to support them, you know, if you've grown up with that at that background, but you know in your heart is not right. That's a real struggle, and so to hear from women who have found my book healing is just incredibly moving to me. And it was very very unexpected actually and wonderful. So I love to hear those stories from women who have found it healing and recuperating, and who have found, you know, that idea of female divinity, which is very much a big part of that book, which of course is very much suppressed in mainstream Christianity. That idea of female divinity and female power and female strength they have found very very important to them, which is wonderful, what a wonderful thing. And I mean, for myself, reading the book was a catharsis. I mean it was a very healing, healing experience. And I mean the book it's it's so profound. It'll move you, it will enrage you, it will make you laugh, it will make you cry. It's it's it's everything that good art should be. It's it's really a tremendous book. Now, on a little bit lighter note, you have made some comparisons, and I as a big Barbie movie fan, I definitely see the comparisons here. You've compared the Lilith to the Barbie movie, which was one of I mean, that's a little refreshing too, that something like Barbie could be pretty much the largest movie in recent history, certainly the largest, certainly the largest of Warner Brothers. So what do you think are the parallels between this massive film and Lilith, which is also experiencing so much success. Well, there are so many, actually, And I was so surprised when I saw the film. I knew I could, I could tell I was going to love the film. Yeah, but I was really really surprised by it because there are so many parallels, you know, sort of to give a brief run through, you know, both these both these both Barbie and Liliths start in this in Paradise and in Barbie, of course, it's Barbie Land, and in my book it's it's Eden, and everything seems affect in that land. But there's something wrong, you know, and that's the way all the stories start, you know, there's something wrong. But you know, Barbie has got to go out into the real world and find the truth, you know, rather than this sort of pretend world that she's grown up, and she's got to find the truth. And the same thing happens to Lilith, you know, Lilith starts off in Eden. She's been told all these things which she later learns her lies, and she has to go out into the real world and she has to overturn what's gone wrong, which is exactly what Barbie does. But also I think the thing that really surprised me about the Barbie movie was the really very radical thing that it did, which is to show a female god, a mother goddess. And of course in Barbie, that's Ruth Handler who invented Barbie in nineteen fifty nine, but she's very much presented in the film as Barbie's, as Barbie's God, which she is, she's her creator, and you know, it's you know, that's a very radic yeah, and that's kind of what my book is about as well. It is also about the mother goddess who is erased by the notion of a soul mel god because of course, before before people believed in one soul mal god, they very much worshiped mother goddesses because women bring life into the world, you know, for thousands of years, that's what the conception of godhead was another and so those those are the sort of the two key things really that are the same. But I was just and it was a proudly moving scene in fact, where Barbie meets Ruth. And that, to me is what your idea of God should be, not this idea of an authoritarian tyrant who tells me what to do and not what to do, not someone who believes in hierarchy, but someone who is motherly. And in fact, you know, Ruth says that wonderful thing in that film that you know, your a mother stops still so that you can look back and see how far you come. And that for me is the difference between a father God and a mother goddess. You know, the mother goddess wants the best for her children. She's not telling them, don't eat the fruit, don't be curious, don't strive for wisdom. She says the opposite of that, you know, go for it, reach for the stars, be the best you can be. And she doesn't mind that her daughter Barbie is surpassing her, whereas, of course, really the story of the Bible is this God who does not want his children to be godlike, He does not want his children to reach up to his level. He very much wants to keep them in their place. And you know, that sort of difference between the you know, the concept of a father god and a mother goddess is very important in my book, as it is sort of tangentially in Barbie. I noticed immediately the parallels when I was reading the book as somebody who has seen the Barbie movie so many times and just absolutely was blown away. So there definitely are parallels and similarities. For those of you that enjoyed Barbie, definitely pick up Lilith. We are going to be posting all of those links for you, beautifully, said Nikki. Now the demographic for Lilith, Who do you think would enjoy your book? Well, I wrote it for women. It's very much a women's book because it's about the you know, it's about the way that women have been women's power and women's strength has been suppressed over several thousand years. So I did write it for ye, but I love hearing from men who've read it. I love hearing from men who've enjoyed it and found it funny. You know, it's supposed to be funny, you know. Yes, I love hearing from people who've found it funny, and I love hearing from men. So I really I think it's for anyone who is open minded. I think that's the key thing, because there are things in it that I think if you come from a religious background, that you might find controversial. So all I would hope is that anyone goes to it with an open mind and is sort of ready to read a different perspective of a story they've heard before. Absolutely. Well, my dad actually runs a book club at a very progressive Methodist church, and I think that they're going I think this is going to be their next book. And also, yes, and my best friend is a guy, and he is a very feminist to the bone, So a lot of men in my life I think are going to really appreciate this book. So this book, I mean, it's a story that everybody could relate to and could be moved by because even though it does talk heavily on and touch heavily on women's oppression throughout the years because of you know, religious hierarchy or whatever reason, patriarchy does affect men in negative ways too. I mean, just look at the world around us. So I think this is a book that you, you know, if you have been touched by the story of Adam, and even most all of us have been, I think this is something that a lot of people are going to really really dive right into and enjoy. Now, Nikki, what legacy do you hope to leave behind with this book that you've created? Well, I suppose, like all I'd hope really when someone finishes it is that they think about the things that they have sort of held to be truths and to question them. All i'd hope for really, is there anyone, you know, questions the absurdity really of this idea that you know, that man is superior, woman is inferior, and to question all the things that rest on that, because you know, it's not like that's a story that's come and gone. That is a story that is still very very present in our world. So that I would want people to question it wherever they see it. I would want people to question, you know, the whole idea of God as male is profoundly damaging to women, and I would hope anyone once you see it, you can't unsee it. So I hope anyone would finish the book and question whenever they see God described as male or the whole concept of a male god, you know, giving authority to men over women. I hope they would question it and see it for the absurd tea is that it is of course, of course one of me. And I'm paraphrasing here, but one of my favorite lines in the book is uh and and really one of the most profoundly sad and something that many women have experienced, is when Lili said to Adam after you know, it's it's a very trigger warnings. It's a hard scene to read, but but she says, you know, you took by force what you had all along, which was her love. You know, she and Adam were coexisting equally, and he decided that he needed to dominate power over actually in the Bible. You know, it's a very jarring scene. I read it, I think, and it was profoundly damaging for me as a young woman to read. But your desire will be for your husband, but he will lrd power over you. I mean, what, what a horrible thing. And just for me to to think of all the fathers and all the pastors that have preached this, and they don't really stop to think how problematic this whole thing has been to women who really want love and they want equality. And I think that's been the difference, you know, is males in this religious authoritarian thing. It's all about dominating authority over someone. No one women shouldn't have authority over men, and certainly that's never been the way it's been, and not vice versa. And I think this book so beautifully and in a very real, profound way, illustrates that. So I thank you again, Nikki for this amazing book that you've created. I've been touched. I know so many people will be, and we're going to be posting. How let me ask you, we're going to share these links too, So for those of you who do who don't have your pins ready, but how do we keep up with you? How do we stay in touch? Well? I'm very easy to find. I think I'm probably the only Nicky Marmory in the worlde unusual name, so I'm very easy to find. I'm on Instagram at marmorie Nikki. I'm on Twitter at Nicky Marmory. That's because of an admin, that's because of my useless technological powers, which is why they've got different handles. But I'm very easy to find. Yes, So Nicky Marmory on Twitter, Marmori Nikki on Insta. I'm on TikTok as well, although I'm not very good at it. I'm learning and I have a way to as well. So Nicky Marmory dot com. But yeah, if you, if you, if you google Nicky Marmory, you'll end up somewhere on one of my on one of my socials. I'm quite easy to find. Wonderful Nikki. Thank you so much again for spending time with us today, and thank you all as always for visiting us on backstage pass. We'll see you next time. This has been a presentation of the FCB podcast Network, where Real Talk Lives. Visit us online at fcbpodcasts dot com.